Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
July 26, 2014, 01:52:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Trapout using SHB infected brood  (Read 4390 times)
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« on: October 18, 2009, 05:21:38 PM »

I'm trying to kill 2 birds with one stone.  I had a cutout that had a SHB infestation before they got built up.  When I discovered it, I froze all the frames but two.  I had 2 frames of brood that weren't obviously overrun that I put in a nuc with clean combs.  They still bugged out leaving a cluster of nurse bees on the brood.  There were no eggs in the brood, so those that were left were doomed.  The remaining brood frames ended up showing some SHB grubs on the sides that are exposed.  I put the nuc as the bait hive on a trapout (my first) in the hope of saving them.  I also didn't want to mess with my other hive by taking out any brood before they get better established.  I set up my trapout yesterday and within a few minutes, I saw bees moving into the nuc.  I checked it again today and there is a marked increase in activity with lots of bees coming and going.  Before, there were only a couple field bees coming and going and no guard bees.  Today it looks like an active hive again.  My question is two-fold: now that there are enough bees to completely cover the frames, will they be successful in killing off the SHBs, or should I risk weakening my other fledgeling hive and put in a frame of their brood with eggs (and no SHBs) and take out the infected frames now that they'll have some new brood? 

My other hive was from a cut out I did about a month ago.  So far they are doing great.  I have only seen a couple of SHBs when I opened the hive and there aren't any to speak of in the trap.  All 10 frames are loaded with brood ringed with honey--most of it capped.  I don't want to break the trend and take out any brood if I can avoid it for awhile.  I expect that soon I'll have to do it to get some eggs in for them to make a queen.
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
SlickMick
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


Location: Brisbane, Australia


« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 05:42:57 PM »

First thing is that having frames full of bees wont kill off the shb. The only affect that the bees will have on the shb is to harrass them and make it harder for the shb to be able to find space to lay their eggs. You should not expect to see a reduction in the shb. You may see a slight reduction in larva but I doubt it. The shb fly in and your guard bees are have a full time job trying to keep them out.

You are better off trying to reduce their number by putting in traps.

I would not take out shb frames and put them into a clean hive. The problem that you may have is that you will be taking shb home to your apiary and the reality is that if you have shb you will always have them. That should not be reason to abandon your trap out as the shb can be managed to the point where they have only limited effect  on your hives. I would do a search on shb on this forum and any others you are a member. There has been plenty written about how to manage this pest and the problems you will have if you dont

Good luck with the trapout

Mick
Logged

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 06:19:35 PM »

First thing is that having frames full of bees wont kill off the shb. The only affect that the bees will have on the shb is to harrass them and make it harder for the shb to be able to find space to lay their eggs. You should not expect to see a reduction in the shb. You may see a slight reduction in larva but I doubt it. The shb fly in and your guard bees are have a full time job trying to keep them out.

You are better off trying to reduce their number by putting in traps.

I would not take out shb frames and put them into a clean hive. The problem that you may have is that you will be taking shb home to your apiary and the reality is that if you have shb you will always have them. That should not be reason to abandon your trap out as the shb can be managed to the point where they have only limited effect  on your hives. I would do a search on shb on this forum and any others you are a member. There has been plenty written about how to manage this pest and the problems you will have if you dont

Good luck with the trapout

Mick
Mick:
G-day!  Thanks for the info.  As an aside. I served a 2 year mission for my church in Queensland--most of it in Brisbane.
  I doubt that any new beetles are going to make many in rodes into the frames that are loaded with bees.  The hope was that they'll throw out the larvae before they trash the brood frame.  I think I managed to evict the adults with my earlier efforts.  The problem was the ensuing larvae in the comb. The only time that the SHB get a foothold has been with a new hive that is not covering every inch of the hive. It sounds like I should pull the infected brood frame and try putting in new?
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
asprince
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1693

Location: Fort Valley, Georgia


« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 06:33:09 PM »

Watch them very close! If there are enough bees and they are crowded, they will pull out the SHB larva. It was dangerous using larva infected frames in your bait hive. If they survive, the added brood will help them build up, but they will need eggs to make a queen.

Steve       
Logged

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resembalance to the first. - Ronald Reagan
SlickMick
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


Location: Brisbane, Australia


« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 10:31:39 PM »

G'day Kedgel. I hope you enjoyed your stay in our sunny city. Of our country's cities, good old Brissy is my favourite.

Regarding your frame of brood with shb in your nuc if you can keep on top of the shb in the entire box then it may well survive. It would still be worth putting in a trap in the floor if you can. I loaned a nuc to a colleague about 3 weeks ago when he was having trouble with the shb. It has an oil trap in the bottom board and he was surprised that the nuc had so many shb. He was able to see an immediate improvement in the vitality of the hive and the queen that had stopped laying began again quite quickly once the number of shb came under control. His hive had come down to 1 frame with the non laying queen. He added a frame of brood, one of honey and one with foundation together with a couple of frames of bees shaken in. Result... dozens of shb in the oil trap

Mick
Logged

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 09:24:41 PM »

G'day Kedgel. I hope you enjoyed your stay in our sunny city. Of our country's cities, good old Brissy is my favourite.

Regarding your frame of brood with shb in your nuc if you can keep on top of the shb in the entire box then it may well survive. It would still be worth putting in a trap in the floor if you can. I loaned a nuc to a colleague about 3 weeks ago when he was having trouble with the shb. It has an oil trap in the bottom board and he was surprised that the nuc had so many shb. He was able to see an immediate improvement in the vitality of the hive and the queen that had stopped laying began again quite quickly once the number of shb came under control. His hive had come down to 1 frame with the non laying queen. He added a frame of brood, one of honey and one with foundation together with a couple of frames of bees shaken in. Result... dozens of shb in the oil trap

Mick

Mick:
I lived in Paddington, Everton Park, Enoggera and Wavell Heights, among other place while I was there.  What part of Brisbane do you live in?  I checked my trapout nuc today and plugged the spot they'd found back into the hive.  Good news, though!  I think my theory is working.  There were a lot more bees covering the combs and I didn't see any larvae on the combs.  There was a pile of grubs corralled in both corners that I promptly sent back to Hell.  As I watched to see if they were getting in still and if they were moving into the nuc, I saw a couple other larvae bail out of the nuc. I'm thinking that as the combs filled with new bees, they were purging the combs of the pests underfoot.  I didn't see any adult SHBs.  My nuc is homemade with the bottom nailed on so I can't install a screen trap. When I  stop seeing shb larvae in the nuc, I'll install a frame of brood with eggs so they can make a new queen.
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
SlickMick
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


Location: Brisbane, Australia


« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 05:18:03 AM »

G'day Kedgel.. some pretty places in those northern suburbs. I live in Camp Hill in SE Brisbane about 5 km from the city.

It sounds as though you are getting on top of things. Dont forget that the shb larva will pupate into the shb inside the ground and also within the hive so it is worthwhile putting a tray of water and detergent under the landing board to drown them when they exit the nuc

It sounds as though you have a hive of bees that do not like the shb and are doing all they can to clear out the beetle and its offspring.. just the sort you need in shb country

Mick
Logged

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 08:21:10 PM »

Update on my first trap out attempt-- I checked it this A.M. and found tons of bees clustered around the cone and bait hive.  I saw a couple of suspicious spots, so I siliconed them up.  I checked back this evening and saw one of the most beautiful sights a beek can see--a worker tumbling over and over stinging a shb grub before carrying it away! I checked inside and the lid had a huge wad of bees hanging from it as well as the frames covered.  I put in a frame of brood with a queen cell in it and a couple more frames of drawn out foundationed combs.  Still no adult SHBs in the hive and way fewer larvae in the nuc--only one corner had larvae in it and very few at that.  I think I've plugged all the potential entrances as there were a gazillion bees excitedly circling about around the entrance and lots taking to the nuc.  So far, so good...
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
SlickMick
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


Location: Brisbane, Australia


« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 09:18:56 PM »

Sounds really good Kedgel

glad to hear that the girls are getting on top of the shbs. I have seen individual bees beeing really aggressive towards individual shb's but not how you describe. Ya just gotta keep that strain! grin

Mick
Logged

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 09:24:58 PM »

Update, day 5:  It seems I've answered my own question.  Since I got limited responses, I proceeded "by the seat of my pants" and left in the infested frames.  As of today, I don't see any evidence of SHBs in the nuc!  No adults or larvae found in the hive.  This wild strain kicked their a%$!  I know that strong colonies usually can keep them in check, but in this case at least, even a small fledgling colony CAN clean them out.  Since I added the fresh frame of brood last night, they have moved onto it and left the original frames.  There were  bees on them, but not smothering them like before I added the other frames.  If there were still shbs in the comb, they would have a better chance to escape detection with the bees attention focused on the brood frame.  They were clean as a whistle.  Way to go, girls!
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
SlickMick
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 590


Location: Brisbane, Australia


« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2009, 03:56:33 AM »

Well done Kedgel cool

Mick
Logged

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
   And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
   One Michael Magee had a shanty.

Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
   Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
   For the youngster had never been christened,
A BUSH CHRISTENING - A.B. "Banjo" Paterson http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/patersonab/poetry/christen.html
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 08:54:44 PM »

Update and a couple questions... Shortly after I wrote the last update, I found a spot where they were getting back into the wall, so I re-siliconed it.  In the ensuing days the nuc filled up to the point that I transferred them to a regular brooder with 3 more frames in it.  That proved to be overly optimistic, so I took out a couple of frames.  Even with a few days of more frames than bees to cover them, still no evidence of SHB.  My brood frame soon was loaded with queen cells and they have aggressively started to draw out the comb in the adjacent frames. I haven't seen any bees exit the wall for a couple of days now and the number of bees trying to get back in is down to a half-dozen or so.  My first question is based on Iddee's instruction to remove the cone 3-4 days after not observing any bees exiting the hive.  It appears to be in conflict with another part of his instructions that state that brood will continue to hatch for 4 weeks.  It has only been 2 weeks since I set up the trap out.  Even though I haven't seen any bees exit the hive for a couple of days, should I wait a couple of weeks to remove the cone?  My second question if a corollary to that.  They haven't got much stored in the frames yet.  Very little bee bread or nectar.  They have also started to put a dent in the honey stored in the brood frame I put in.  Should I feed them, or wait and let them rob out the old hive when I take the cone off?
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 09:05:28 PM »

OOPS!  In reading about another trapout,  iddee said to leave the cone on for 4 weeks,  so I guess I just need to know should I feed?
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5903

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 07:28:39 AM »

The queen will lay as long as there is pollen and nectar coming in. It takes 3 weeks for the eggs to emerge as adult bees, and a few more days for it to fly. Therefore, you must leave the cone on for a minimum of 4 weeks after the cone is "secure", or after the last hole is plugged. Then you wait a week with no bees leaving the cone. I have done them in 5 weeks, it has taken up to 10 or 11 weeks.

The catch box bees must eat. If there is a flow going on, no feed is needed. If no flow, then you need to create one. "feed"

PS. If there are any bees trying to get back in the cone, they came out within the last 3 days, whether you seen them emerge or not, so don't start your 4 day count until none are trying to return. Then only after 4 or more weeks after you plugged the last hole.

Since you are in southern Florida, I cannot say what the SHB will do inside the trapped hive.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 09:53:16 PM »

The queen will lay as long as there is pollen and nectar coming in. It takes 3 weeks for the eggs to emerge as adult bees, and a few more days for it to fly. Therefore, you must leave the cone on for a minimum of 4 weeks after the cone is "secure", or after the last hole is plugged. Then you wait a week with no bees leaving the cone. I have done them in 5 weeks, it has taken up to 10 or 11 weeks.

The catch box bees must eat. If there is a flow going on, no feed is needed. If no flow, then you need to create one. "feed"

PS. If there are any bees trying to get back in the cone, they came out within the last 3 days, whether you seen them emerge or not, so don't start your 4 day count until none are trying to return. Then only after 4 or more weeks after you plugged the last hole.

Since you are in southern Florida, I cannot say what the SHB will do inside the trapped hive.
Iddee:

Thanks for the clarification.  I checked the hive this morning and found no bees trying to get back into the wall, so it looks good so far.  I'll feed them a quart of syrup and cross my fingers that it doesn't encourage SHBs.  Thanks to your expert advice about trap outs my first attempt seems to be a success so far.  Thanks again!

Kelly
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 11:21:18 PM »

I waited 4 weeks to pull the cone.  I hadn't seen any bees trying to get back in the wall for at least a week.  I checked back the next day and saw bees entering and leaving the wall.  I noticed one bee with pollen on it at the wall entrance, but I couldn't tell if it went in the wall or not.  I checked the next day again and saw a couple of bees with pollen go into the wall.  Did I screw up an jump the gun, or do pollen-laden bees rob out the old comb?  I worry that I'll have to reset the cone and re-start the clock on taking off the cone so they can rob the old hive.  Also, even though I had 5 or 6 emergency queen cells at one point, I still have no new brood.  Should I put in another frame of brood?
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5903

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 08:17:51 AM »

"Did I screw up an jump the gun",  YES
 "or do pollen-laden bees rob out the old comb"?   NO
 Should I put in another frame of brood?  EGGS?  YES

Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 07:09:56 PM »

BUMMER! Thanks, Iddee for the input.  Judging by the activity at the old hive, I'd say the old hive is being robbed blind in spite of some bees still at home.  I watched a veritable flurry of bees leaving the wall and heading straight into the trap  hive.  I also saw several field bees carrying pollen enter the wall, so I guess I'll have to reset the cone and wait another month or so.
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5903

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 09:24:03 PM »

I would wait 2 to 3 days before replacing the cone. If they are, in fact, robbing it out, they will totally destroy it and the remaining bees will abscond. You will know for sure in 3 days.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kedgel
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 192


Location: Bonita Springs, FL


« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2009, 08:38:29 PM »

Well, I checked back on my trapout after a week and found it was business as usual in the old hive. I was amazed to see the hive come back within a week.  Pollen-laden field bees were pouring into the wall and there were even some guard bees at the entrance.  When I went to move the trap hive put the walk board back under it, it felt like it had an anvil in it!  I opened it and found it was LOADED with honey!  tongue They had run out of room and started building comb on the lid and filling the space where there were no frames.  I added another frame and cut out the burr comb.  I checked back again today and they were back at trying to fill the open space with burr comb built on the side of the outside frame.  They had already drawn out the new foundationed frame enough to start storing nectar in it.  I put in the last frame so now they won't have a space to build burr combs.  I replaced the cone Saturday and today it looks like I trapped the field bees from the wall since today there were no bees exiting the wall and there were only a couple trying to get back in.  I'm loving the 2 honey flows in FL. Between them robbing out the old hive and the honey flow the trap hive is bursting with honey.  My emergency queen cells failed to produce a laying queen and all the brood from that frame has hatched and been replaced with honey.  Now I don't want to get any brood in the hive so I can rob all the honey.  The orange trees haven't started to bloom yet, so they will have time to make more.  This has actually worked out kind of neat.  The trap cone has served as my queen excluder and the steady flow of bees from the old hive has kept the trap hive strong.  As far as I can tell, the trap hive's frames are about 95% filled with nothing but honey.  My screw up of taking off the cone prematurely may turn out to be a blessing.
Logged

Talent is a dull blade that cuts nothing unless wielded with great force--Pat Travers
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.407 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page July 23, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
anything