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Author Topic: Foundation sizes HELP!!!  (Read 1547 times)
TheMasonicHive
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« on: October 17, 2009, 12:53:34 PM »

Hello everyone,


I'm trying to buy some foundation for my first beehive, and on Dadant's I keep seeing sizes, but I can't get a cooresponding size on the boxes so I don't know what size I need to get.

My hive has two deeps and two mediums.

I'm ASSUMING that I need to buy THIS (https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=72) for the deeps, and THIS (https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=110) for the mediums.

Can someone put me along the right path?  By the by, my frames are wedge frames.
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
Robo
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 01:03:24 PM »

Yes, that appears right.  Crimped wire works well with wedge top frames.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 03:02:50 PM »

Walter T. Kelley has the best advice on exactly which foundation was made for exactly what frame.  But, unfortunately, they don't have small cell foundation.  One confusion is that the term "Medium Brood" is applied to any brood foundation that I now know of on the market and has nothing to do with the SIZE of the foundation, but rather the thickness (sheets per pound).  Basically about a 5 1/4" foundation is what fits in a medium and 8 1/4" (or something close to that) fits a deep frame.  Slight variations exist to handle things like split bottom bars and split top bars as well as wedge top bars and grooved bottom bars etc.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 09:11:55 AM »

Michael,

If you could give me a link to somewhere where I can get specific small cell foundation that would be great.

The only thing I'm curious about is that like I was saying earlier that bees build sizes to suit their needs and I know that drone cells are larger than worker cells.  If I get small cell foundation and they only draw out small cells, am I doing any harm to my drone brood?

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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 09:35:10 AM »

Nevermind.  I found them.

On Dadant's website they say very plainly "suggested only for experienced beekeepers".

Why is that?  Why would this be a poor starter option for me?
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 12:30:27 PM »

>If you could give me a link to somewhere where I can get specific small cell foundation that would be great.

You found it on Dadant and they are the manufacturers. You can also get it from Bruhsy Mt, Betterbee and others.

>The only thing I'm curious about is that like I was saying earlier that bees build sizes to suit their needs and I know that drone cells are larger than worker cells.

The issue is no different than with standard brood foundation and less so than with plastic foundation.  They will rebuild to suit their needs.

>  If I get small cell foundation and they only draw out small cells, am I doing any harm to my drone brood?

No.  But if you want you can put in some empty frames to get some frames of just drone.

>On Dadant's website they say very plainly "suggested only for experienced beekeepers".

Yes they do.

>Why is that?

I wish I knew.  I can only speculate.  I assume they don't want to explain regression and don't want you to call and complain if you don't bother to measure cells size, and don't treat and your bees die.

> Why would this be a poor starter option for me?

I would be a good starter option for you.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 12:55:23 PM »

you might want to really research small cell before you spend the extra money. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
TheMasonicHive
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 08:19:41 PM »

Kathy,

Any periodicals or books you'd recommend?
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Christopher Peace
Oakland County, MI

"It teaches us that, as we come into the world rational and intelligent beings, so we should ever be industrious ones; never sitting down contented while our fellow-creatures around us are in want, when it is in our power to relieve them without inconvenience to ourselves." - Freemasonry on the Beehive
kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 08:28:18 PM »

the problem with small cell is that there are very few real studies done.  just a lot of beekeepers who swear by it...

there was one study done fairly recently and someone posted it here.  you might be able to find it with a search or maybe someone remembers who did it.  it did not come out in favor of small cell.

it's up to you.  won't hurt, i'm sure.  it's just an added expense for something that seems mostly wishful thinking.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 08:51:52 PM »

All I know is I kept losing them to Varroa until I went to small cell and natural cell and have not lost a hive to Varroa since.  Pretty dramatic difference from my point of view.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »

you have done other things though.  you raise your own queens, and have kept only hives that could survive without treatment.  perhaps your overall approach is more the reason than small cell?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 05:28:50 PM »

>you have done other things though.  you raise your own queens, and have kept only hives that could survive without treatment.

I didn't lose any to Varroa from when I regressed.  I was not raising my own queens at that time.

>  perhaps your overall approach is more the reason than small cell?

I'm sure the overall approach is important in the long run.  It was not what I did before my Varroa problem was resolved.  All I did before that was regress.  I'm sure raising acclimatize bees greatly increases survival, but not from Varroa, from climate, and seasons and flows and dearths and cold spells.

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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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