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Author Topic: Queen mating  (Read 1817 times)
Joelel
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« on: October 13, 2009, 04:00:52 PM »

When queens mate, they mate with different drones. If the drones they mate with are different breeds,will the bees look different from time to time ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
contactme_11
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 06:12:18 PM »

Yeah. Actually you can see huge variation with the offspring of the same queen over a couple of years. I've seen hives that started out looking italian and eventually ended up very small and dark.
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jclark96
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 08:43:45 PM »

My current hive has nice yellow Italians, dark looking bees and everything in between. Just watch the front door for a few minutes.
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scdw43
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 09:57:01 PM »

Yea, and when you graft a larva which color are you using. AI is the only way to be sure.  They have been doing it by their selves for a lot longer than there has been AI and beekeepers.
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Winter Ventilation: Wet bees die in hours maybe minutes, no matter how much honey is in the hive.
Joelel
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 12:16:27 AM »

Thank all of you,that's what I been told and it sounded right. I have a hive changing on me,at first I thought it was being robbed but come to the conclusion the breed was changing.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
heaflaw
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 01:04:35 PM »

I disagree.
I am almost positive that this is what I have read:

The millions of sperm cells from all the drones the queen mated with is all mixed together inside an organ in the queen's body.  She has no control over which egg is fertilized by which drone sperm.  It is completely luck as to which sperm fertilizes which egg.  The sperm of one drone should not run out sooner or last longer than the sperm of any other drone.
The mix of workers in a hive will always be from different drones.  But the mix should stay mostly consistent over her lifetime.  So, if the mix of workers has changed, that means the queen has been superceeded and the new queen has mated with a different mix of drones.

I hope someone with more knowledge than I can verify this.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 07:12:01 PM »

They are somewhat mixed and somewhat layered.  It's not all one or the other.  I've seen the workers change over time.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Joelel
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2009, 10:06:04 AM »

I keep forgetting,you can find anything on the net.

Genetics of the Honey Bee
The family relationships within a colony of bees are different from other agriculturally important animals as a consequence of mating habits, social structure, and drones developing from unfertil ized eggs. The honey bee colony found in nature is a complex family group, best described as a Superfamily. This superfamily consists of: (1) one mother queen, (2) several father drones present as sperm in a sperm storage organ (spermatheca) of the queen, and (3) the worker and drone offspring of the mother and fathers.

Within a superfamily are usually 7 to 10 subfamilies, that is a group of workers fathered by the same drone. Since all the sperm produced by a drone are genetically identical, each subfamily is composed of sisters that are more closely related than full sisters of other animals. Thus, workers belonging to the same subfamily, often called supersisters, have three-quarters of their genes in common by descent. They receive identical gametes from their father and, on the average, half-identical gametes from their mother.

Workers belonging to different subfamilies have the same mother but different fathers. They are half sisters and have one-quarter of their genes in common by descent. On occasion, brother drones mate with the same queen. In such instances, their subfamilies are related to each other as full sisters rather than half sisters. Through natural mating, such full sisters probably are uncommon.

Despite the complicated family structure, the basic principles of genetics still apply to bees. The chromosomes contain hereditary units called genes. The specific place on a chromosome where particular genes are found is called a locus. On rare occasions, a gene entering an egg or sperm has changed somewhat and will have a different effect than the original gene. The process of change is called mutation, and all the forms of a gene that might occur at a locus are called alleles.

Honey bee eggs hatch regardless of whether the are fertilized. The female bees--queens an workers--develop from fertilized eggs that contain 32 chromosomes. These 32 chromosomes consist of two sets of 16, one set from each parent. Hence female bees are said to be diploid in origin. The males (drones) develop from unfertilized egg which contain only one set of 16 chromosomes from their mother. Drones are thus haploid in origin This reproduction by the development of unfertilized eggs is called parthenogenesis

Since queens and workers have paired chromosomes, they carry two alleles for each gene, one on each member of the pair. If both alleles are of the same type, the condition is homozygous; if they are different, the condition is heterozygous. In some heterozygous circumstances, one allele will mask the expression of the other and is said to be dominant. The allele which has its expression masked is said to be recessive. Drones can carry only one type of allele because they are haploid; thus, they are called hemizygous.

At one time parthenogenesis was considered to be the basis of sex determination in bees. The theory was that a chromosome dosage effect occurred such that two sets of chromosomes resulted in females and one set resulted in males. While this is a reasonable explanation, this theory is now known to be untrue.

Research workers investigating apparent low egg viability in inbred lines discovered that sex in bees is determined by the alleles at a single locus. If an egg is a heterozygote at this locus, it will develop into a female. If it is homozygous or hemizygous, it will develop into a male.

The apparent nonviable eggs found in the inbred lines were diploid eggs homozygous at the sex locus. Worker bees selectively remove and destroy homozygous diploid larvae from the comb just after they hatch. Research efforts have been made to rear these diploid drones to maturity with the hope of producing diploid sperm and triploid queens and workers. However, artificial rearing is a difficult procedure; and the resulting diploid drones had reduced testes and produced very little sperm.

While sex determination is genetically complicated, other characteristics can be even more complicated. Different combinations of alleles at a locus result in different expressions of charac teristics. Alleles at other loci also can affect a characteristic. All these different events result in complex genetic systems which produce a wide variety of character expression in bees. For ex ample, worker bee response to isopental acetate (a component of alarm pheromone) was estimated to be influenced by at least seven to eight genes. This variety is some of the raw material necessary for the genetic improvement of bee stocks.

As with other animals, variety in bees is further increased by events that occur when a female (queen) produces an egg. During this time pairs of chromosomes in cells that are destined to be come eggs exchange segments. Further in the process, the chromosome number of germinal eggs is halved. This process results in a haploid egg, with chromosomes having a new combination of alleles at the various loci.

Unfertilized, the egg will develop into a drone which will produce sperm. The processes of re-combination of alleles and reduction of chromosome number do not occur in drones. All the sperm cells produced by a drone are genetically identical. They are identical to each other, and they are identical to the chromosomes in the unfertilized egg that developed into the drone.

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 10:24:52 AM »

Honey Bee Genetics
A honey bee superfamily consists of a queen, the sperm of several drones and the worker and drone offspring of the queen's mating efforts. A queen will mate with several drones during a mating flight and will store their sperm within her spermatheca. All sperm produced by a single drone are genetically identical. Within each honey bee superfamily exist seven to 10 subfamilies, identified as a group of bees fathered by the same drone's sperm. Due to the identical nature of the drone's sperm, female workers within a subfamily are three-quarters genetically identical.

Unlike most other animals, honey bee eggs hatch even if they have not been fertilized. Fertilized honey bee eggs with 32 chromosomes develop into female worker bees, while unfertilized honey bee eggs with 16 chromosomes develop into male drones through a process known as parthenogenesis. Chromosomes contain genes, and the position of each gene on a chromosome can dictate identificatory aspects of the honey bee, such as sex and pheromone production.

Diversity within honey bee populations allows for strength and provides humans with various types of honey, but the mechanics of bee reproduction were not understood by humans until the mid-1800's. At this time a beekeeper, L.L. Langstroth, developed a moveable frame within which to house, control and study honey bees. However, even these frames did not allow for easily-controlled breeding. Humans were not able to effectively breed honey bees until instrumental insemination was introduced in the 1940's.

http://www.orkin.com/other/bees/honeybee-genetics
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
heaflaw
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 01:43:11 PM »

Joelel,

That was great info.  Thanks.

Did it answer the question of whether the workers from the same queen can change over her lifetime or whether they would stay the same?  I didn't read that in the info.
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Joelel
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 02:57:18 PM »

 I agree with the four of you here that believe the bee breed can change from the same queen. I'm sure those of you who say your hive has changed knows it was the same queen. It only stands to reason if different genes from different breeds of bees are in either the queen or the drones,the different gene will be seen and change the looks and habits of the bees from time to time.
  The same as with other animals and people that cross breed,their kids come out with features of the mother or the father because the genes are being mixed or with features of both.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 03:09:51 PM by Joelel » Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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