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Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 18787 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #140 on: September 07, 2009, 10:47:06 PM »

Quote
Got Katrina.  But then the disaster that was Katrina was in large part the doing of the Corps of Engineers – in not maintaining the levee system,

not entirely true.  much of the maintenance money was given to the state.  right after the levees broke and before i went down there to work, i pulled up the levee commission reports.  i only found one.  unfortunately i didn't copy it off, but saved the link.  the report was on levee money spent.  it was spent on parks, air strips, etc., but not on the maintenance for which it was intended.  of course, when i went back to the link, the report was gone.  did they know that the levee system needed improvement?  yes they did.  so do many things.  should the state, knowing that the levee system needed improvement have had a plan?  you'd think so

Quote
But then again, government as an insurance mechanism for disasters of this magnitude seems to be a valid role to me

state government should be, and the state of LA was woefully unprepared.  on those occasions when the state is overwhelmed, there is a federal mechanism.  it does not self trigger.  the state has to ask for the federal help.  the governor of LA didn't even know how to activate or borrow from other states the national guard.  both FEMA and red cross were kept out of the super dome, and kept a gunpoint out of jefferson parish.  the parish through which the people of NO needed to evacuate to reach the naval base that was prepared to receive them.  of course, the press passed on all that news.

we do need a framework.  our system was designed so that the states would provide the framework that the people wanted.  it was not designed for an all powerful central government dictating to the states and the individual.  it certainly wasn't designed to give the feds the power to set wages, compensation, run companies, and provide federally funded health care.  any of those things may be done by the states, but not the feds.

 Not exactly. Individuality resides within the individual. You are human and I am human, but we are not alike. You have your individual rights, and I have my individual rights. These are dictated by our respective governments. Then there are what some believe are God-given rights, and that gets into another realm altogether

in this country, our founders believed that our individual rights were god given.  regardless, the more the government dictates, the fewer your individual rights.  do there need to be laws?  yes.  do we need to be "controlled" no.  as long as we are engaging in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, what business does the government have with us?  

Quote
You have your individual rights, and I have my individual rights. These are dictated by our respective governments.


when the government controls rights, we have no rights.  that is why our constitution was written to limit government.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beecanbee
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« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2009, 02:14:30 AM »

  not entirely true.  

Kathy, thanks for the perspective and education on some of this.  Of course we won't agree on all points, but didn't expect to do so.   Smiley I generally stay out of these types of dialogues - except when forced into them with relatives about once a year, so I have enjoyed this thread, the embedded links, and the various points of view.
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
mick
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« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2009, 05:50:06 AM »



By crikey! (thats the original saying), that is outstanding LJ. That is just how can I say it, head shaking unbelievableness.

OK, I might cop the odd .50cal sniper rifle, AR15s, H&K (entire cat.) but, come on. Being able to own a canon that can ricochet 400 yards and go through a house is just BS.

If this is allowed under the 2nd, then surely I can have a few MiGs, the odd cruiser, a squadron of tanks.

If I can have arms under the 2nd, what stipulates what I can and cant have? Surely I cant have an A bomb, so there must have been a change to your right to bear arms to prevent this. If you allowed this and other laws to prevent crims from having military arms, surely you can allow a few more changes. Or do you have THE RIGHT to own what you want and only supply and demand prevents those good ole boys in the south having the combined force of a small country?

It just doesnt make sense. Then again, we drive on the left, you find that strange. Samoa just chaged from the RHS to the LHS yesterday to make car imports easier.

Google that if you want a laugh!

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Vibe
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« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2009, 10:43:00 AM »

If this is allowed under the 2nd, then surely I can have a few MiGs, the odd cruiser, a squadron of tanks.
The purchase price and upkeep is generally prohibative....And if you are a Corporation you could probably leave the guns attached.
If I can have arms under the 2nd, what stipulates what I can and cant have? Surely I cant have an a bomb,
The LEGAL transfer tax on a hand grenade is $5 each to the BATF - in addition to the purchase price. But Wal Mart doesn't carry them. Cheesy


so there must have been a change to your right to bear arms to prevent this. If you allowed this and other laws to prevent crims from having military arms, surely you can allow a few more changes.
Several of "us" would like to undo a lot of what's been done so far.

 
Or do you have THE RIGHT to own what you want and only supply and demand prevents those good ole boys in the south having the combined force of a small country?
The armed portion of our population STILL outnumbers our own military by 3 to 1.
It just doesnt make sense. Then again, we drive on the left, you find that strange. Samoa just chaged from the RHS to the LHS yesterday to make car imports easier.

Google that if you want a laugh!


We'll see how much they save on cars and gas after they wreck all the RHD cars.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2009, 03:22:12 AM »

I've read this entire thread with interest, took me slightly more than 3 hours.

Cultures have a lot to due with preceptions.  In Japan, historically under Shogan rule, an individual dropped to there knees, bowed until their foreheads touched the ground and uttered the phrase, "Mushi Mushi," which best translates as "I am Your Servant."  Mushi, Mushi is stilled used today in such instances as answering the phone.  When I was in Japan it was the caller who was in control of the conversation, the person answering the phone uttered Mushi Mushi, becoming the servant, and proceeded to do nothing but answer the questions of the caller.  If rebuttal was desired or the persons wanted to ask questions for clarification, they would then have to call the original caller back, who answered Mushi Mushi and, hence, became the servant in turn.
The Indians of the Pacifc Northwest that used Chinook Jargon as a trade language was so impressed with this conduct that they made a corruption of Mushi, Mushi their word for slave, "Misimust."

People reared in a country with a history of kings, sultans, shahs, Rajahs, etc, are of a mind that the protection eminates from the government (ruler) and, hence, cannot understand the American Idealism of individual liberties. America was a frontier, and unexplored land of unknown vastness, riches, or natural wonders.  The act of hewing a country out of virgin forests, land, and waters made the settlers of America an independant lot.  There safety was reliant upon themselves and their closest neighbors, not a potentate, or they perished.  Here they could own the lands they developed, not owing a Monarch or Lord for support to exist. That must be understood if one has any hope of understanding the American people.  Canada and Australia had similar beginnings, hewing a life from unbroken rock, so to speak, but unlike the USA, they, to this day, still consider the Monarch of England their King or Queen and the parting between oppressive master and intolerant servant was much less disruptive of civil disorder.  That makes a big difference in how the USA's closest siblings see and understand their elder brother.

In my own travels around the world the one thing I noticed was that as much a the people of that country lambasted America and Americans for their Arrogance and Outspokeness as a reflection of the official homeland government line, when given the opportunity to come to America many made the trip with nothing of value except the clothes they wore.  Many have spent what were fortunes in the own country to come to the US with a status equal to that of a homeless person trodding the streets of many cities pf America.  I think everyone has seen or is aware of a least one family of immigrants who came into their community destitue and began working at the most meanial jobs.  Yet over a period of years they owned business' and often became community leaders.  Why?  Because they made the best of the phrase espoused in the Decloratio of Independence that All men are created equal.  They are created equal but what they achieve is not neccessarily equal because that is left up to the inititative and diligence of the indivigual.  Many work and achieve great things because they have that desire, others are content with meing an unrecognizable face in the crowd, while still others would prefer to have their life given to them and their lifestyle and achives reflect that.  America is a land of trassplants  from other countries, world wide, who have, historically, and still do, assimulate together as one culture.  The ideas of the world have given America its unique outlook.

When one can fully understand all of those complexities, the necessity and dependence upon self-reliance, the necessity of helping their neighbor to enable their own survival, one can begin to understand why Americans treasure the Bill of Rights and especially the 2nd Amendment.  America fought for their indepence, they died, to fertilize the ssoil andideals upon which it was founded. 

As much as I admire both Canada and Australia, their parting from their motherland was much more subdued and amicable.  That makes a big difference.

Any discussion about any of the USA, or it's constitution, can go on awe nauseum unless one truly understands America.

 Brian does his  hissy fit hissy fit soapbox  Got that Pardner?  Jerry
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
reinbeau
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« Reply #145 on: October 17, 2009, 06:37:08 AM »

Hear, hear, Brian!  And good to have you back - you've been missed!
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VolunteerK9
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« Reply #146 on: October 17, 2009, 10:16:23 AM »

I may be a little late on this thread, but I have to throw in my .02.  As a LEO I am able to carry my weapon basically wherever I go with the exception of any Federal Building.  I am a NRA member and have been so for sometime as I do not want my rights being taken away. However, just because I have the right to carry, why would I want to bring attention to myself by packing heat in plain view to go to the local Wally World where all can see much less to a convention where our nations President is surrounded by a ton of itchy trigger finger Secret Service guys?  Carry all you want to, (legally that is) just keep them concealed and you will attract far less attention. In the event of the proverbial crap hitting the fan, I would far rather be the armed guy in the shadows than the armed guy in the crosshairs.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #147 on: October 17, 2009, 10:28:37 AM »

>I would far rather be the armed guy in the shadows than the armed guy in the crosshairs.

That's part of what I never understood about the original laws outlawing "concealed carry".
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #148 on: October 17, 2009, 03:37:47 PM »



By crikey! (thats the original saying), that is outstanding LJ. That is just how can I say it, head shaking unbelievableness.

OK, I might cop the odd .50cal sniper rifle, AR15s, H&K (entire cat.) but, come on. Being able to own a canon that can ricochet 400 yards and go through a house is just BS.

If this is allowed under the 2nd, then surely I can have a few MiGs, the odd cruiser, a squadron of tanks.

If I can have arms under the 2nd, what stipulates what I can and cant have? Surely I cant have an a bomb, so there must have been a change to your right to bear arms to prevent this. If you allowed this and other laws to prevent crims from having military arms, surely you can allow a few more changes. Or do you have THE RIGHT to own what you want and only supply and demand prevents those good ole boys in the south having the combined force of a small country?

It just doesnt make sense. Then again, we drive on the left, you find that strange. Samoa just chaged from the RHS to the LHS yesterday to make car imports easier.

Google that if you want a laugh!




Mick, I think our second amdt, and all of the amendments - given the history and time period - is not an assent to rights granted to (people), but a listing of rights which are not a concession of Government but built in to every person born breathing. I realize it may make people (politicians) nervous who believe only they are wise enough to decide who is to have "rights" (this relegates a right to the status of privilege-hood) but it is my belief that the second amendment was spelled out so that people could protect themselves against being governed against their consent - the founders of the united states were philosophically bent to the belief that rights exist whether they are exercised or not - not granted or refused by anyone else. Arguments now go on about whether a firearm is 'useful' as a hunting weapon -  this is a secondary purpose at best and hunting is irrelevant as pertains to the second amendment.
as to crime being rampant if people have firearms, See Kennesaw, Ga. Gun law - they passed a law there in which every adult who isn't a felon or a nut case MUST own a firearm - the result was a dire disappointment to anyone who thinks guns beget crime and violence of themselves - crime in kennesaw Ga. pretty much disappeared. (though my hippy brother pointed out that firearm accidents went up - I am convinced that he made this statistic up - as it would make headlines given the political climate surrounding firearms; and I looked it up myself and found NO reference to firearms accidents increasing there.)
  Truthfully I think you should be able to own whatever weapon you want to (provided you aren't a nut job or a criminal) and that no governing body (in the world) has the authority to forbid (a person) from owning firearms
I don't know how you feel about only being governed by the collective consent of the people, but having weapons in the hands of the people tends to enhance the respect for the people's consent.
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