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Author Topic: The World sinks to a new LOW !  (Read 8413 times)
Scadsobees
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« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2009, 02:10:11 PM »

Speaking of Catholics and politics:




 grin
I think it is a response to some actor doing a far left commercial.
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Rick
Keith13
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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2009, 02:11:21 PM »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,566080,00.html?test=latestnews

It apperars the Taliban are upset that Obama won also

Keith
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tshnc01
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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2009, 02:37:42 PM »

Quote
can you give some examples of focus on values issues to the detriment of the constituents?  there may well be some, but i can't think of any off hand.

I would not agree that this focus is to the detriment of ALL constituents; What I am saying is that plenty of conservative people do not agree with the positions on  1) abstinence only sex education 2) teaching of creationism 3) abortion 4) stem cell research....And these may not be the same people who are disillusioned due to the shift away from being fiscally conservative...

...Tim
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2009, 03:06:17 PM »

one minor point kathy, achmedinejad (sp?) = "Ahmagonnajihad" heard some guy use it on the radio and there's no way I'm letting a gem like that fade away.
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be happy and make others happy.
kathyp
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2009, 03:18:33 PM »

it's true that many do not agree.  i doubt you'd find party that would truly represent all of us.  i don't have a problem with the republican partys stand on those issues.  it has nothing to do with religion.  more to do with where i think the left would take us without that kind of push-back.  

for instance, i don't think sex ed should be taught in school.  i don't want the teacher to imprint on  my child his/her beliefs about sexuality.  our new "safe school czar" would be a good example of why we don't need teachers teaching kids about sex.

 i have a problem with any theory being taught as fact.  if you want to teach evolution, teach all the creation mythology of all cultures.  teach them all as theory.  

i do not have an issue with stem cell research, but i have a problem with federal dollars being spent on any of it, and a particular problem with fetal stem cell research. i believe it will happen in the private sector when the potential of profit is seen, but i see huge potential for abuse if stem cell treatments can do all that is hoped.

i have an issue with abortion.  the legal abortion of yesterday would be a murder today.  the age of viability changes with technology.  until someone can definitively tell us when life begins, i think we should ere on the side of caution and not abort babies. it's not like birth control is hard to come by.  we now have in the administration at least on person who has advocated euthanasia and withholding of care for babies who will not be productive citizens, or children who have not had enough invested in their future to make spending on them worthwhile.  other countries have already decided that euthanasia is a good option.  i don't think the leap between abortion and euthanasia is to hard to make.

so....i have basically the same positions, but not for religious reasons.  smiley

we can only pick the person who most closely will represent our positions.  it should not be about party.

Quote
"Ahmagonnajihad" heard some guy use it on the radio and there's no way I'm letting a gem like that fade away.
   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2009, 03:23:14 PM »

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43160620091014

here is what you get when you are loved.  these were the same folks who were breaking the OFF sanctions against iraq...along with france and germany.  yup!  being loved is great.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Vibe
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« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2009, 03:39:48 PM »

We now have in the administration at least one person who has advocated euthanasia and withholding of care for babies who will not be productive citizens, or children who have not had enough invested in their future to make spending on them worthwhile.  other countries have already decided that euthanasia is a good option.  i don't think the leap between abortion and euthanasia is to hard to make.
And yet Dr assisted suicide is not legal (where all parties are informed and willing), but abortion still is legal (where at least one participant is definably ignorant and innocent).
For myself personally would prefer an euthanasia option as opposed to the simple denial of medical service in the case of a serious or terminal illness that would result in a slow agonizing end with no access or hope of care.
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tshnc01
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« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2009, 04:09:49 PM »

Quote
so....i have basically the same positions, but not for religious reasons. 

But even with your positions Kathy, there is definitely nuance.  I don't see that with the platform of the religious right...Just a lot of moral certainty and judgement... 

 Here is a snippet of an exchange between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell after 9/11:

Quote
"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve," said Falwell, appearing yesterday on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club," hosted by Robertson.

"Jerry, that's my feeling," Robertson responded. "I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population."

Falwell said the American Civil Liberties Union has "got to take a lot of blame for this," again winning Robertson's agreement: "Well, yes."

Then Falwell broadened his blast to include the federal courts and others who he said were "throwing God out of the public square." He added: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

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kathyp
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« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2009, 04:37:07 PM »

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Just a lot of moral certainty and judgment

more moral uncertainty and a wish to lean to the cautious side.  also a bit of an knowledge of history and the observation that when nations undermine whatever their basic foundations were, they fail.
when you see the beliefs of those now in power, it's not to hard to see how they got where they are.  sometimes there really is a slippery slope!
 
i don't have a problem with moral certainty.   there are things that are right and things that are wrong.  at some point we are all confronted with the need to make a choice between the two. 

what judgment? 

not sure where that conversation fits into ours.......

vibe, doc assisted suicide is legal in oregon  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2009, 05:02:10 PM »

Some people need religion to point them in a moral direction - others arrive there via their own thoughts and rationality.  I'm with Kathy for the most part on all of those issues, and I'm a Pantheist - many consider that pretty atheistic.  Religion is used to bring order to society, morals are just plain common sense, and that common sense is carried on a religious theme- thou shall not kill, rob, covet, etc are all good moral values to run a society by. 
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tshnc01
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« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2009, 09:01:26 PM »

Quote
not sure where that conversation fits into ours.......

Sorry, shouldn't have tried to throw a post together before running out the door.

I should have just ended the post with "I don't see that with the platform of the religious right"  The rest that followed was part of another train of thought I was working on....Smiley   
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kathyp
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« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2009, 09:35:13 PM »

that's ok.  happens to me when i try to start writing in the morning before making a big dent in the contents of the coffee pot.   tongue
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
irekkin
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« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2009, 09:55:16 PM »

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-43160620091014

here is what you get when you are loved.  these were the same folks who were breaking the OFF sanctions against iraq...along with france and germany.  yup!  being loved is great.
[/quote

being loved and respected is great. i would call it a basic human need. would i pursue it at all cost? no, i wouldn't, but i wouldn't smack their hand away the first thing either. i guess what i'm saying is smarter people would have at least tried to use this good will to their advantage.
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kathyp
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« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2009, 10:25:42 PM »

Quote
being loved and respected is great. i would call it a basic human need. would i pursue it at all cost? no, i wouldn't, but i wouldn't smack their hand away the first thing either. i guess what i'm saying is smarter people would have at least tried to use this good will to their advantage.


in what way?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
irekkin
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« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2009, 10:46:45 PM »

Quote
being loved and respected is great. i would call it a basic human need. would i pursue it at all cost? no, i wouldn't, but i wouldn't smack their hand away the first thing either. i guess what i'm saying is smarter people would have at least tried to use this good will to their advantage.


in what way?

honestly, i really don't know. it's just one of those liberal gut feelings i have. grin
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kathyp
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« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2009, 11:00:07 PM »

an honest liberal  grin

liberalism is about gut feelings.  facts are difficult things.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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