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Author Topic: The World sinks to a new LOW !  (Read 9272 times)
kathyp
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2009, 12:01:51 AM »

i always welcome fresh meat  evil  i am more a carnivore than mechanical creation.

irekkin, your views will be welcome here.  the more views, the more discussion.  that's a good thing.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2009, 02:31:19 AM »

i always welcome fresh meat  evil  i am more a carnivore than mechanical creation.

irekkin, your views will be welcome here.  the more views, the more discussion.  that's a good thing.

kathy the carnivore, i like that. i've read that in many species of animals the female can be the most vicious. i've got a pretty tough hide though. grin

as far as obama goes , i'm sure it wouldn't have been to hard to find someone more deserving of the nobel peace prize. but i don't think it was so much about obama as it was a shot at the former administration. it's a shame that both bush and obama had once in a life time chances to change things for the better and dropped the ball. after 9/11 most of the world was in our corner, ready to help and bush/cheney blew it with their "my way or the highway attitude". the problem with obama and alot of the democrats is they have a majority to make the changes but don't have the spine to do it. i heard it said on some other blog that there are three political groups in america now. the left, the right and the disorganized, misinformed middle.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2009, 06:38:54 AM »

The middle is hardly disorganized and misinformed - you'd only think that way if you were yourself pretty uninformed.
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2009, 09:08:40 AM »

wow! a whole nest of rightwingers. i'd never have thought i'd run up on a bunch of ya'll on a beekeeping site.  i've found that trying to reason with conservatives is like going up against the borg. you're always out numbered and resistance is futile. it all makes sense though, conservatives,beekeeping, the borg, the hive-collective. when i've been assimilated do i get some of those cool mechanical claws, i believe they'ed work great for pulling frames. evil Kiss grin

And trying to argue with liberals is like trying to argue with your brain-dead weed-smokin' brother-in-law... "Dude...I don't know what you just said but it just don't FEEL right!"   grin grin grin   tongue
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2009, 09:20:32 AM »

wow! a whole nest of rightwingers. i'd never have thought i'd run up on a bunch of ya'll on a beekeeping site.  i've found that trying to reason with conservatives is like going up against the borg. you're always out numbered and resistance is futile. it all makes sense though, conservatives,beekeeping, the borg, the hive-collective. when i've been assimilated do i get some of those cool mechanical claws, i believe they'ed work great for pulling frames. evil Kiss grin

I agree that trying to reason with right wingers is futile. They use facts and reasoning and other things that make no sense at all. Left wing tree huggers like to argue based on passion and feelings and are just easier to deal with

Keith
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2009, 09:51:16 AM »

The middle is hardly disorganized and misinformed - you'd only think that way if you were yourself pretty uninformed.

I agree. The Middle is the " Silent Majority ", they are Organized and Informed, you just don't hear about it because WE tend to keep quiet  grin The EXTREME Left and Right are the ones that are messed up in my book.  rolleyes
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c10250
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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2009, 09:58:29 AM »

My political leanings are somewhere in the middle.  I base my opinions on fact (I have a background in science). I used to consider myself a Republican, but under Bush the size of government grew to record levels, and deficits soared.  Those are not my Republican values.  It seems like the Republican party became less and less fiscally conservative, less and less politically conservative (think smaller government), and became more and more religiously conservative. 

It seems like every  hardcore Republican I know now is a religious nut ball.  Oh poor-poor Republican party . . . where have you gone???
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2009, 10:03:02 AM »

My political leanings are somewhere in the middle.  I base my opinions on fact (I have a background in science). I used to consider myself a Republican, but under Bush the size of government grew to record levels, and deficits soared.  Those are not my Republican values.  It seems like the Republican party became less and less fiscally conservative, less and less politically conservative (think smaller government), and became more and more religiously conservative.  

It seems like every  hardcore Republican I know now is a religious nut ball.  Oh poor-poor Republican party . . . where have you gone???

I find myself strangely agreeing with you

Keith
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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2009, 10:08:48 AM »

The EXTREME Left and Right are the ones that are messed up in my book.  rolleyes
Too bad more people didn't realize this. People automatically think you are liberal or Democrat when you say anything against any of Bush's policies. They've been brainwashed by the extremist to think you are one or the other. What ever happened to independent thinking ?
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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2009, 10:26:34 AM »

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It seems like the Republican party became less and less fiscally conservative, less and less politically conservative (think smaller government), and became more and more religiously conservative.  


you are right on the first two, but wrong on the 3rd.  that's the way the press tries to paint republicans because they know it turns off a lot of people.  it's not that the party has become more religious,  it is that most people of faith identify more strongly with the right than the left.  that is true for all of the major religions on moral issues, and for most, on security issues.  even though catholics and  jews tend to vote dem because their beliefs system lend themselves toward a favorable view of  social welfare systems, many are beginning to vote for conservative (sometimes republican) candidates who are more hawkish and have a better understanding of world issues.

Quote
after 9/11 most of the world was in our corner, ready to help and bush/cheney blew it with their "my way or the highway attitude".

i always find this argument to be the most amusing.  WTH do we care so much if the world loves us.  what did that ever get us?

what is the presidents job?  it is to do, within the  constitution, what is best for the US.  if he has to choose between that job, and being loved, he'd better choose his job!  think back on the presidents recently who have been much loved by the world.  jimmy carter...bill clinton.  we don't even have to go into carter, but the path to 9/11 leads from carter and lands in the lap of the weak policies of clinton.  his destruction of our intel gathering, and his fear of angering the word by doing what needed to be done in iraq and afghanistan, were major contributing factors to what happened.  toss in a little somalia and yemen and he will bear the brunt of the blame when history is written.

but the world loved him.

now look at how obama is getting bent over on everything he tries to do.  he's been shafted by russia on iran.  the arabs are thumbing their noses at him, as are both the israelis and palestinians. the n koreans are shooting off rockets. he just signed some agreements at the g20 that are going to hasten the destruction of our economy, but everyone from china and india applauded him for it. hugo, castro, and achmaidiot, sing his praises.  he can't even get a majority liberal congress to hasten his agenda.   so far, it looks like they love him like the team loves the water boy.  toss him a candy bar and pat him on the head.

someone will always lead.  no one ever leads from a position of weakness.

the republican party is not a conservative party.  it has not been for a long time.  when you are given a candidate like mccain, you know you are in real trouble.  even so, he would have been better than the much loved, and now rewarded by the world, obama.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2009, 10:45:31 AM »

I used to be a Democrat way back raised that way. then when I joined the army I should have stayed in any way I registered as an independent. I don't care for ether party I like to think for my self. This new administration makes me very scared and a bit hostile at the same time.
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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2009, 11:06:20 AM »

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it's not that the party has become more religious,  it is that most people of faith identify more strongly with the right than the left.

Agreed; however I think that organized religion has increasingly become involved in the political process over the past 20ish years.
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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2009, 11:15:48 AM »

Agreed; however I think that organized religion has increasingly become involved in the political process over the past 20ish years.
LOL. And how many years ago was it that people left England to come here to get away from politics controlled by organized religion?
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kathyp
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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2009, 11:29:08 AM »

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Agreed; however I think that organized religion has increasingly become involved in the political process over the past 20ish years.
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LOL. And how many years ago was it that people left England to come here to get away from politics controlled by organized religion?

most "religions" are not centrally organized.  the exceptions among the bigger belief systems would be mormons and catholics.  both of those churches tend to be politically active and on opposite sides most of the time.  christians outside those two groups are not centrally organized and have diverse political beliefs, although they tend more conservative in both fiscal and moral issues.  since most of the country tends right of center on both, they are within the majority. 

we have been conditioned by the ACLU to believe that religion and politics must be kept separate.  that's ridiculous, since most americans identify with some religious belief and it is an integral part of their lives.  it also flies in the face of our history.  go back a read the founding fathers papers.  very rarely was a document written or speech given without God or a higher power being referenced. 

there is a big difference between beliefs having influence on politics and voting, and having a state church. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2009, 11:48:53 AM »

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there is a big difference between beliefs having influence on politics and voting, and having a state church.

Kathy, I agree 100% with this.  What I was speaking to is more related to the rise of folks like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, etc. and the issues that are important to them.  I didn't mean to imply that specific religions had become more involved in the political process.

...Tim
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kathyp
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« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2009, 12:24:08 PM »

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What I was speaking to is more related to the rise of folks like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed, etc.

whenever you have like minded people, they will look for some kind of organization and voice,  especially when they see their values being trashed and marginalized.  the moral majority (as an example) did not become popular because of jerry falwell.  it became popular because he gave voice and organization to what a lot of people believed.  the so called evangelicals do not have a pope or prophet.  it makes perfect sense that they would seek leadership to bring to politics those issues they deemed important.

how is it different than the atheist organizing, or the gays?

they are a good example of leadership rising to fill a vacuum.  it does not matter if we are talking about small groups, or the world.  leadership is required.  for better or worse, most people require leadership in order to execute. it's something we should keep in mind as we give ours up to the international community.  who/what will emerge to fill the vacuum of leadership we are leaving?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2009, 01:04:06 PM »

Not all beekeepers are pot smoking, exhippies who never lost the hair cut (or lack there of one) who ZENS-OUT each time they near the colony. And I don't think I ever read the bumpersticker "Turn-on, tune-in and beekeep" or "Drugs, Sex and Beekeeping" anywhere - lol.

Let's face it, the world as a whole may be liberal minded, but surely this forum has its fair share of Conservative thinkers who just happen to have a desire to keep bees too!

We never took a random poll on who LEANS which way, I'd be a "middle of the road Conservative" myself. but there is at least one of everyone here, which makes it so interesting.  I just like to believe that the ISSUE is the point, not the side I'm supposed to stand on according to a major news network. Too many sheep in this world, I'd rather do my best trying to be a lead dog, than be a follower just looking at another followers butthole trekking along the frozen tundra.

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« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2009, 01:29:44 PM »

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how is it different than the atheist organizing, or the gays?

It is no different at all.  And clearly groups that share common values/interests that aren't being represented will find leaders to fill the void.  My contention is that over the past 20 years, the agenda of the right has had a shift as a result of those underrepresented voices finding leaders.  And some people (perhaps like C10250) may feel like the republican party doesn't represent them as well as it used to given the additional focus on "value" issues.

...Tim
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2009, 01:31:30 PM »

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  even though catholics and  jews tend to vote dem because their beliefs system lend themselves toward a favorable view of  social welfare systems, many are beginning to vote for conservative (sometimes republican) candidates who are more hawkish and have a better understanding of world issues.

[

Kathy,

You think Catholics vote dem? Around here most Catholics vote hard line Rep. due to the whole abortion issue. What makes you think that way do you see something different in Oregon?

Curious ,

Keith
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kathyp
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2009, 01:53:16 PM »

on social issues other than moral (abortion, etc.) catholics tend to be quite liberal.  many church leaders will not take a public stand on things like abortion.  i suspect some of that comes from the left over desire for power over principle.  Nancy Ps standing in the church is an example.  some of their stands on social issues i think come from the days when the church was the state, and the state should care for it's own.  not that any state ever did a good job of that........  catholics also spend a great deal of time teaching the virtue of poverty and giving.  it's not hard to translate that into taxes ane welfare.  you have something of the same structure in jewish teaching, but no pope to hand down edicts.  grin

Quote
My contention is that over the past 20 years, the agenda of the right has had a shift as a result of those underrepresented voices finding leaders.  And some people (perhaps like C10250) may feel like the republican party doesn't represent them as well as it used to given the additional focus on "value" issues.

i think the republican party has drifted in other ways.  they are not fiscally responsible and they are not responsive to those they represent.  they are as out of touch with their people as the left is. 

can you give some examples of focus on values issues to the detriment of the constituents?  there may well be some, but i can't think of any off hand.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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