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Author Topic: Sugar vs Fondant  (Read 11669 times)
Finski
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« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2009, 02:17:10 PM »

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I live here

15:30 direction you see white water tower. I am quite near.

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Jack
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« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2009, 05:23:49 PM »

What a gorgeous archipelago.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2009, 05:46:58 PM »

Finsky,
I don't think everyone from Brazil to Alaska is doing the same. Even though the latitudes of Alaska are fairly north,because of ocean currents I believe conditions from Anchorage to Juneau is quite different.
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Alaska/Juneau/
http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Alaska/Anchorage/
I understand what you are saying about feeding early.If someone has a system of feeding that works that does not make it wrong.You live in an extreme climate and have adapted to get your bees to survive there. There is a lot of geographical and climate differences within the contiguous 48 states that allow  for different styles of feeding.The southwest is near desert conditions,while upper west coast is very wet and humid.The intereior sections enjoy vast temperature swings from summer to winter,while the East coast and the south can go from drought to  flooding conditions withthe passing of a tropical storm
Bjorn has been very succesful with feeding fondant. The moisture content is not very high.And yes humidity is relative. 1 litre of water evaporated in a specified area at 0C yields a higher relative humidity than the same quantity of water in the same space at 25C.So if moisture is not eliminated as the temperatures drop,the humidity rises and you will have condensation.
I appreciate your stands on why you feed the way you do. And I agree that many new beekeepers may choose the wrong method for their locale. But if it gets too late for syrup to be dried sufficiently,fondant and dry sugar are better options thhan letting the bees die as long as feeding doesmn't end up costing more than replacing the bees.
 I have local keepers who have used most of the methods mentioned in one form or another without any problems. But the biggest problem with syrup here is as you said,if it is fed too late.So if time has not allowed or autumn moves in early(early killing frost) they have to resort to other methods.

And to other forum members,give Finsky his due,he has kept bees for many years in what is probably the harshest of climates,I think he has had bees north of the arctic circle.His advice on insulating,ventilation and rapid feeding should be given merit because he can duplicate positive results consistently.Finskys results with oxalic acid are probably on the money too.I think he treats with oxalic in December  when there is little brood in the hives.
Correct me Finsky if I am wromg on when you do your treatments for mites.
 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 08:11:20 PM by buzzbee » Logged
trapperbob
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« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2009, 07:16:24 PM »

It's safe to say that one point has definitly been proven here ask a question of a few beekeepers lets say five for example and you will get a hundred different answers and one really hot debate. Finski I have learned some good ideas from you and Bjorn both and that does not make either one of you absolutly right or wrong if there is one thing we have all learned it is that what works for one beekeeper may not work for another. I live in Nebraska and the winters get very cold here and the summers hot and humid. That is about the only thing the entire state has in commen with its self just in the part of the state I live in the climate varys enough that I got a great flow this year 100+ lbs of honey per hive but in talking with many others there flow all but failed. This was due to rain and cooler weather. And if you drew a hundred mile circle around my hives all those people would be in that circle I'm sure that most of them keep bees in much the same way I do but I am sure there are many differences in the way they do things also or there bees would be dead. Finski you are right that there are some things that need to change in the way we keep bees in the states but that being said that does not mean that you me or anyone else has the right to insult each other for the way we do things. There is nothing to be learned from insults.You are right for the area you live in as Bjorn is right for the area he lives in both of your succeses have proven this and I hope that you Finski and You Bjorn will continue to leave your wisdom and great knowledge on this forum. You guys don't have to get along but every time one of you guys says something dosen't mean you have to get into a pissing contest. Some times you just have to agree to disagree.   
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trapperbob
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« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2009, 07:35:21 PM »

Sugar or fondant I do not know if one is really better than the other. Sugar is much more widely avalible but fondant is much easier to handle. That being said honey is always best but if they are light it would be best to feed early and as much as they will take. Even when there is enough stores in my hive I will put syrup on and mix a little honey b healthy in it. The hives that get the HBH always seem to be stonger in spring not real sure why but it is always that way. If I have a hive that lokks as if they will eat through there stores only then do I use sugar but they have to burn through there stores first. This has happened a few times ussually Italians. And as soon as they will take it in spring I will put syrup on. I do not like using sugar it is a very temporary fix and the bees do not build up on it or at least this has been my experiance. 
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Finski
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« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2009, 12:28:09 AM »

.
Do as you like. I have studied geography and biology in university, and I understand American continent climates.  

I have  too cases in the yard that it is too late to feed a colony.

I have collected capped food frames from another hives or I have given from my honey store capped
honey frames.

I have used succesfully that when I have found AFB in some hive. very late I have shaked bees in front of new hive which has capped  winter food frames. And disease have went awy.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 01:09:28 AM by Finski » Logged

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Finski
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« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2009, 01:20:14 AM »

.
What is the final shedule to feed bees? Every one clears it out in their home district.

When I stop feeding 2 weeks ago, 10 cm snow had rained allready 500 km away from me in north.
I get first snow rain on sunday .

I feed hives in the first week of September. Professional beekeepers start feeding a month earlier because they have hundreds of hives to feed. If you have 500 hives, you must feed every day tens.
Nowadays many use 16 litre feeding box. So they may give only one box of  syrup.

If you have 5 hives, it does not take many hours to make syrup and  fill feeding box.
100 kg sugar, and you just take time. Otherwise, give up beekeeping.

.
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buzzbee
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« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2009, 06:42:32 AM »

.
What is the final shedule to feed bees? Every one clears it out in their home district.



If you have 5 hives, it does not take many hours to make syrup and  fill feeding box.
100 kg sugar, and you just take time.

.

Excellent points Finsky!
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JWPick
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« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2009, 09:24:30 PM »

I'm very interested in all the ways of successfully feeding bees. I've witnessed sugar water feeding and it would appear that it would add some considerable moisture. I also enjoyed Robo's ideas with dry sugar on the newspaper, as well as on a sugar board. I really enjoyed the instructions about the sugar frame list on Robo's World. I've also investigated the Fondant which is very similar to Apifonda, which Mehmet Yuksel feeds his bees. I will enjoy, next year, attempting each method, or combination, to see which works best for my climate. Our winters aren't nearly as severe as most of the north, but it still feels COLD. Mississippi does have high humidity. I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for all of the wonderful insights into each method.
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Rodni73
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« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2009, 10:06:50 PM »

Imagine  grin
By Rodni

Imagine there's no winter
It's easy if you try
No freezing hell below us
Above us only sunny sky
Imagine all the beekeepers 
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to argue for
And no veroa mites too
Imagine all the beekepers
Living life in peace

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no fondant
I wonder if you can
No need to feed bees sugar
A brotherhood/sisterhood of beekeepers
Imagine all the  beekeepers
Sharing all the honnnnnnnnneyyyyyyyyy

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one
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kathyp
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« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2009, 10:15:57 PM »

 grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
jsmob
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« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2009, 02:54:47 PM »

This last winter, early spring, I feed some candy boards to my 4 hives. In doing so I killed 3 of my hives off.
The cold fondant, plus warm moist air from the hives, made it like a rain storm in the hives. I could not believe how much water was in them. My mistake was that I put the candy boards directly on top of the frames. I thought that I had enough ventilation to let the moist air escape. I didn't. If you feed fondant make sure it is placed on an enter cover and that the hive is tilted so moister drains to the side and not down the frames. I like the sugar because it will take up some of the moister.
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Finski
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« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2009, 03:41:48 PM »

.
.I think he treats with oxalic in December  when there is little brood in the hives.
Correct me Finsky if I am wromg on when you do your treatments for mites.
 

I have had mites since 1982 when I killed the first hive for mites.

Now I use only oxalic acid trickling once a year when ALL brood are away. If the hive has brood in December, it will surely die during winter. The basic of wintering is that the colony/strain is locally adapted and stops laying at the beginning of September.

We have total several months brood brake in winter, mostly 4-5 months.

Just now my hives are allready in clusters and there are almost all brood emerged.
Brooding stops at the beginning of September but mostly feeding starts it again. That is why feeding must be quick that it does not inspire much laying..
.
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Diane
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« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2009, 05:06:45 PM »

All this information is very helpful to a new beekeeper, but now I have more questions after reading all these posts and other feeding posts on this forum.

1.  If I choose to make my own sugar candy for feeding over the winter.  (We have one hive with no honey) Should I place the candy on top of the frames or over the inner cover.  Did I read an earlier post that said it melted and killed the hive? 

2.  Or it sounds like I can just put sugar on the inner cover.  Did I understand this correctly?  Is that all there is too it?

3.  For either of these choices, do I periodically add more sugar or sugar candy to the hive during the winter.  Is it OK to open the top cover during the winter? 

Thanks all for the feedback.
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kathyp
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« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2009, 05:15:52 PM »

i put dry sugar on the inner cover.  any day that the temp gets 40ish, i pop the top cover and replace as needed.  in my area, any day that it's 40ish, the bees fly and eat.  i also live in a wet area, so i don't need to dampen the sugar. 

this is not a substitute for feeding them up in the fall.  it's just a way to give them extra in case i have mis-calculated or we have a cold, wet, spring.

there is nothing wrong with using the newspaper method, i just find this method faster and easier for me.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Robo
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« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2009, 05:51:19 PM »

1.  If I choose to make my own sugar candy for feeding over the winter.  (We have one hive with no honey) Should I place the candy on top of the frames or over the inner cover.  Did I read an earlier post that said it melted and killed the hive? 

If you don't make the candy hard enough (high enough temp).  It can become gooey and run.  If you have long cold spells like I do, you stand a chance of the bees starving even though there is food on top of the inner cover because it is too cold for them to break cluster to get to it.
Quote
2.  Or it sounds like I can just put sugar on the inner cover.  Did I understand this correctly?  Is that all there is too it?

Same issue with them not being able to get to it.
Quote
3.  For either of these choices, do I periodically add more sugar or sugar candy to the hive during the winter.  Is it OK to open the top cover during the winter? 

You should try to limit the amount of times you open them up, especially when it is cold.  However,  a little chill is better than starving.  The candy board is usually a one shot deal because you can't add more to it.  Dry sugar can be added, but it can be tricky at times depending on how many of the bees are up on the top bars consuming what sugar is left.

Here is a picture of a candy board that came off in the spring.


Here is more info on candy boards -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Diane
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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2009, 11:34:19 AM »

Thanks Robo and Kathyp.  I think I might try the sugar candy at least in the one hive with no honey.  Thanks for the link.  I don't want them to starve.  Being a first year beekeeper I'm a nervous nelly!  Smiley
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jsmob
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« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2009, 10:26:02 PM »

Quote
The cold fondant, plus warm moist air from the hives, made it like a rain storm in the hives. I could not believe how much water was in them.

 I am sorry I was not clearer. The problem I had was condensation. The cold block of candy, coming in contact with warm moist air,causes condensation in the hive. And allot of it. Just make sure your hive is well ventilated. I will tip the candy board at an angle next time. So if moisture dose form it drains to the side, and not down over the cluster.
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Robo
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2009, 08:35:01 AM »

So you used candy and not Fondant then?   Fondant or too soft candy can get gooey and run.

Sounds like your bees weren't using it, if the cluster was up top, the candy wouldn't be cold.   How thick was your candy?  It should have provided a better insulation value than the hive walls,  which in turn should cause the condensation to happen on the walls.
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jsmob
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2009, 12:56:32 PM »

Maybe I am getting my terms messed up. I used this method.
Quote

The bees had been working the board on all three hives that died. But there was allot of water in side and the bees that were still alive were covered in syrup, caused from the melting of the sugar. I don't know but rain could of leaked in as well. I am not sure. Sad
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