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Author Topic: The middle income (Blue Collar) worker is going away  (Read 2840 times)
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« on: September 29, 2009, 02:33:47 PM »

I have been seeing this for year ever since this NAFTA got started, the economy will only get worst with no jobs and taxes being payed from earnings. the old saying "The Rich Get Richer AND The Poor Get Poorer" is really showing its colors.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-income-gap-widens-as-poor-apf-388403228.html?x=0
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2009, 03:15:29 PM »

wasn't NAFTA that did in the blue collar worker.  it was the unions.  if you make your industry non-competitive by demanding more wages and benefits that the industry can support, you lose your job to another country.  it's another one of those things that are not rocket science.  

the other thing that has done in the American worker is tree huggers.  i live in timber country.  why does my lumber come from canada?  because there is some wing nut chained to a tree in the middle of the forest.  why are my veggies coming from china?  because the water has been turned off to the farmers in CA to save some flippin fish.  

i realize this is a bit oversimplified, but it isn't trade thats the problem.

oh ya, throw in some government regulation and high taxes.  those are real industry killers.  wait until cap and trade kicks in.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2009, 03:22:33 PM »

I have been seeing this for year ever since this NAFTA got started, the economy will only get worst with no jobs and taxes being payed from earnings. the old saying "The Rich Get Richer AND The Poor Get Poorer" is really showing its colors.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-income-gap-widens-as-poor-apf-388403228.html?x=0


NAFTA was ratified back in 1994 and you are just observing the decline  huh  The Income GAP according to most Economic ThinkTanks are not only caused by NAFTA, CAFTA , etc. but by overtaxation and over-regulation and excessive immigration from poor nations, and yes, the rich are getting richer because they are smarter and work smarter than the average American ( good for them ). Also the current Administration is not friendly to Capitalism, I believe they will put the nail on the coffin in America's decline since the 1990s.  Sad
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2009, 04:43:27 PM »

the idea that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer seems to assume that there is a static pool of money.  if someone is getting rich, someone else must be getting poor.   that's not the way it works.  poverty itself is not a static state of being for the majority.  many of us have gone through periods of real poverty.  most of us don't stay there.  some go in and out of that state.  a very few stay there and usually due to their own poor choices.

the left likes the above saying because it gives them cover to take from the "rich".  after all, how will the poor every make it if you don't take from those who have?  the lazy love the idea because it give them an excuse for their failure.  how can they be accountable for their condition with all these rich people hogging all the money?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2009, 05:10:39 PM »

I know several people who would be classified as "rich". I also know that they provide jobs for many other people. These people have assumed many risks to acquire their riches. It was not money they stole from the poor.I have never worked for a poor person. I don't expect I ever will. I know one person that started in a small apartment with a near empty refrigerator. He worked seventy to eighty hours a week and saved his money along the way. He lives comfortably now. Maybe he needed taxed more on his hard work. Maybe some of the poor now are the rich that were taxed into poverty.
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2009, 05:26:34 PM »

  The USDA has some stats that are of interest. If I read the charts right a couple living in Indiana is low income if they make $38K a year. They can make $18K a year and still get the minimum food stamps.
  It seems that the middle income area starts at $50K a year for a single and $75K for a couple. The town I live in has a midian income of $38K.
  For most of my life making $50K a year would have seemed rich to me. Heck the $38K would have been really nice. And I thought we were a middle class family.
  Seems to me that the terms "middle income" or "middle class" aren't very well defind. And if they are the figures aren't common knowledge.
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2009, 05:47:28 PM »

and it depends on where you live.  poverty is not well defined.  i have lived below the poverty level, but never starved.  did without some stuff, but never thought i'd die from it.  problem is, most americans have never seen real poverty.  i have, and i know that the poorest person in this country is wealthy compared to many in other countries.  the poor in most countries have no chance of every being anything other than poor.  the poor here have a choice and a chance.  if they choose to stay poor, i have no sympathy for them.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2009, 06:12:07 PM »

It's how people utilize their resources  grin

 I heard this from Chris Rock, I will paraphrase:
If Bill Gates had Oprah Winfrey's money, he'd jump out the window and on the way down shoot himself.  grin
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2009, 07:09:47 PM »

It's true that American workers in many cases are not competitive in a global job market, but it's not just blue collar jobs that have out migrated.  Engineers, software designers, and virtually any job that can be telecommuted is in danger of being outsourced - if it hasn't already. 

That's disturbing enough, but what about the huge number of jobs that have just simply disappeared forever?  Computer aided manufacturing and automation have made many production jobs obsolete.  An ever shrinking number of agricultural workers is able to produce an ever growing amount of food using huge automated machinery.   Even 2 out of every 3 trash collectors is being replaced by robot arms on the collection trucks.

Many of the jobs that used to be skilled or at least semi skilled are being dumbed down by technology so that they can be filled by entry level workers.  Even driving nails was once an actual skill that only experienced carpenters really ever mastered - replaced by an unskilled (nearly) guy with a nail gun.

So, how does the economy work with an ever decreasing number of good jobs, and an ever increasing population?

Before I turned 21 I knew that I always wanted to own my own means of production, and I've been self employed since I was about 26 - off and on before then.  I've employed quite a few people over the years, and yes some were lazy, some made a long string of bad choices.  But the vast majority of working class people that I've known and employed have been hard working and decent, and just wanted to be able to support a life style for their selves and families that they could be proud of.  It has been my experience that most of the Americans around me don't want Anything given to them other than a fair chance.

And then there are crack heads.  Never hire a crack head.
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 08:01:51 PM »

the short answer is that the american worker failed to realize that they were competing in a world market.  you can't pay a guy with a rivet gun 35 bucks an hour, health care, and a retirement package, when someone in china will do the same work for a fraction of the price.  India invested in tech education for their people and took over tech jobs.  we still waste our kids time in auto shop and interpersonal skill courses.

the world is always changing.  if you don't keep up, you lose.  our auto industry is a prime example.  they failed to control costs. they failed to provide a quality product at a competitive price.  add to of that, the one product they do well...big vehicles, the government wants to kill.  now they are trying to catch up, but i have no desire to drive a US made car that i'll have to replace at 70 thousand miles when i can drive a honda or toyota for 150 thousand miles.

we also got lazy.  there are jobs, but you'll never see a white guy picking in the fields or orchards unless it's the farm owner.  we killed entry level jobs with minimum wage requirements.  we killed teen employment with minimum wage and regulations that keep them from doing anything but flipping burgers.  we killed the need to get a job by continually extending unemployment benefits.  we increased the expected standard of living (re:crap we can't live without) to the point where it takes two wage earners to have the crap we can't live without.  

we won't do the things that could bring costs down like drilling our own oil, cutting our own forests, and watering our fields.

my only satisfaction in this is that when it all crashes down, these soft liberal tree hugging socialists nut balls will be the first to die.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 10:23:44 PM »

This is a hard one.  The US and other countries have opened doors to international education – and now there is no person anywhere in the world that (given a bit of an investment) cannot compete in any industry or field – white or blue collar.  Costs of infrastructure are generally cheaper elsewhere than in the US, as is the cost of labor, and global shipping costs next to nothing.  Telecommunications allows for a global operation to pick and choose where each component input to a process is best sourced.

For those workers starting off life in the US, and indeed for young workers anywhere in the world – if they are to succeed they need to be prepared to be internationally mobile, very well educated, multilingual, technically savvy, and have impeccable work attitudes.  Of course there will always be some jobs to be locally sourced (gardening, food service, etc.) – but they too will be chased after by an increasing number of those who fall out of the first tier in employment.

Does it really matter if the US has an underclass of workers – poor and barely getting by, and a lowering of the average standard of living?  Most industrialized countries face this – and all lesser developed countries have had far poorer conditions forever.  We can lament the loss of jobs to overseas locations – but this will not change anything nor bring them back.  What the US needs to do, and what other countries are doing – is to invest heavily in education so as to produce future workers who can compete with the best and the brightest the world has to offer.
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2009, 12:17:42 AM »

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Does it really matter if the US has an underclass of workers – poor and barely getting by, and a lowering of the average standard of living?  Most industrialized countries face this – and all lesser developed countries have had far poorer conditions forever.

no it does not.  all great nations and empires have had an underclass.  it was either because of a class system, or slavery.  the difference between those countries, past and present, is that the underclass in the US has the opportunity to achieve more.  our underclass is not permanent.  those countries who have tried to force some kind of equality through social and economic engineering, have failed. 
it is a fact that someone with a 75 IQ is probably not going to end up earning millions.  even so, you can not create equality, only opportunity.  even someone with a 75 IQ can learn a trade and be a productive member of society....unless we keep telling them they can't.

 
 
Quote
We can lament the loss of jobs to overseas locations – but this will not change anything nor bring them back.  What the US needs to do, and what other countries are doing – is to invest heavily in education so as to produce future workers who can compete with the best and the brightest the world has to offer.


i would argue that we have invested huge amounts of money in education with little return.  why would a child worry about getting a good education when there is no risk of starvation. why would parents insist on children attending school, doing homework, and making good grades when welfare is such and easy choice?

in those places where children do go to school and do graduate, the quality of the education is so poor that we are still not competitive.  it's not about investing more (money).  it's about getting kids into programs that will challenge them to be the best at whatever they are going to do.  i do not think that a public school system that dumbs down education to the lowest common denominator is the answer. 
if we are going to pay for education, then let parents choose the schools and programs that their children attend.  if you want to keep the public school system, keep it, but let there be competition for the tax dollars.  if public schools are forced to compete they will improve or close.

stop making college the ultimate goal.  for some jobs, it's important.  for others, it's not.  why do we force kids to be in college for 4 to 6 years when targeted training would make them ready for the job market earlier and better prepared.  the "well rounded education" is an idiotic waste of money for most kids.

i'm sure i'll think of more in my sleep and rant on tomorrow   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2009, 02:31:03 AM »

Gee Kathy - I hope you had a good sleep and are feeling better. Smiley

  i would argue that we have invested huge amounts of money in education with little return.  why would a child worry about getting a good education when there is no risk of starvation. why would parents insist on children attending school, doing homework, and making good grades when welfare is such and easy choice?

Most jobs in any corporation of any size will require higher education – so I need to disagree with you.  Those in education do, medicine does, engineering does, journalism (outside of Alaska) does   evil, etc.  Education, and the US investment in it has delivered the highest productivity of any nation, and near highest patient filings, nearly the best in medicine, etc., etc.  Without continued investment in education the US (and any country for that matter) will lose out to others who are willing to invest.

Investment does not need to be governmental – and can be personal investment, but few at the age that education needs to occur can afford it on their own, so for me – my taxes paid toward education for others is a good investment in my future – the future of my society, economy, etc.  I paid my own way – with the help of the GI Bill and a few loans – and figure that my higher education has been responsible for an income of over 270% above what I could have reasonably expected to have earned without it (net of the total investment cost).  That is, it did not just double my income – it nearly tripled it.  Of course there were other benefits as well.

Now of course I do agree that not all workers need that investment, and for those who can reasonably be predicted to fail, it would be better for them to take a trade school, or some other form of learning, and to become productive workers sooner.


Quote
in those places where children do go to school and do graduate, the quality of the education is so poor that we are still not competitive. 


I disagree with you there - the US is competitive in education - tests will show that the best match the best.  It is not education that is uncompetitive and is causing job losses to overseas - it is that we are facing a global economy, and where there is a lower cost of living (as there is in most countries), companies can and do hire the best for less.

Quote
  it's about getting kids into programs that will challenge them to be the best at whatever they are going to do.  i do not think that a public school system that dumbs down education to the lowest common denominator is the answer.  if we are going to pay for education, then let parents choose the schools and programs that their children attend.  if you want to keep the public school system, keep it, but let there be competition for the tax dollars.  if public schools are forced to compete they will improve or close. 

I agree with you on this.

 
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2009, 05:37:12 AM »

the way things are going higher education would work if you plan on moving to another country because this country cant handle but so many high level jobs. you dont need engineers if there are no plants or  jobs to fill.

 I will give you a little history of something I know for a fact about the pharmaceutical industry, I worked for Monsanto from 93 til 98 when we were bought out by pharmacia, then in 2000 we were bought out by Phizer, our little plant (150 employees counting contractors) here in Augusta ga was the plant that launched celebrex, we supplied it for the world for the first 2 1/2 years until they got the plant in puerto rico running, see if a finished product in made in the united states it is taxed 40 percent, and some wonder why they haven't made puerto rico a state because if its made there, FDA regulated and all it is only taxed 8 percent, every pharmaceutical company has 3-6 plants in puerto rico (been there and seen it), our government is bought and owned by the big companies, in 2006 our plant was closed and it was the most updated and automated plant in the state, nobody wanted to buy it because they can build in puerto rico and only be taxed 8 percent, even out of country companies that get tax relief for owning here will pay less in wages and other benefits by owning in puerto rico and still be able to sale here in the states, our cost of medicines here are so high because this is where all the R&D is done, they re coop there cost from us, thats why you can get the same medication at lower cost from other countries, face it our country is run by big companies because there lobbiest are well funded to get things pushed through our government.

And yaw talk about cars and stuff when most of it is made in Mexico, economy and bad management plus help from the unions was the down fall for them. And the made in America sticker on thing is a bunch of bull, John Deere here in Ga gets all there equipment sent here already put together in those big shipping crates, they put the stickers on here and the tires and then they can legally put Made In America stickers on them, face it, a man on TV said in 2000 by the year 2020 there will be no industrial jobs here in the states, well by the looks of it,  it might be sooner than that.......  
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2009, 08:25:10 AM »

our government is bought and owned by the big companies...

Amen.  The amount of money they are able to spend to get their way skews everything.  It's hard to imagine a doable cure. 
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2009, 08:33:01 AM »

I paid my own way – with the help of the GI Bill and a few loans – and figure that my higher education has been responsible for an income of over 270% above
 

The post war GI bill was one of the best investments our country ever made - paid itself back several times over.  Somehow we failed to learn the value of investing in education.
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2009, 10:15:52 AM »

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my taxes paid toward education for others is a good investment in my future


it would be for me also if i were getting my moneys worth.  i am not.  i agree that education is an important key in moving up economically.  i disagree that our current higher education system is the answer.  if someone is going into a specific area that requires extra education, why not target the education to that area.  why must they take ballroom dancing, art  history, and other assorted crap classes that have nothing to do with, for instance, engineering.  let them become well rounded in their off time.
if education were targeted, the time to becoming a tax paying citizen would be much shortened to the benefit of all.

having seen the education system in places like japan, our is lacking.  there are a lot of reasons.  families that are not paying attention.  teachers more interested in how many day a year they get off, and what the retirement package will look like.  teachers having to deal with the social/behavioral issues of the students, distracting them from teaching.  discipline problems in school and no way for staff to deal with them.

the lack of discipline in students is appalling.  every time i go past the local high school i want to arm my self with a pair of pliers, clippers, and some garbage sacks.  there is a reason for a DRESS CODE!!   now....don't i sound like an old lady  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 10:21:36 AM »

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our cost of medicines here are so high because this is where all the R&D is done, they re coop there cost from us, thats why you can get the same medication at lower cost from other countries, face it our country is run


the main reason that drug costs are high is that almost all other countries subsidize and put caps on the amount of money that will be paid for drugs.  my solution to that would be to stop selling to them until they met market prices.  it would be a short term hardship, but a long term gain for US consumers, as prices would be spread more evenly.



 
Quote
a man on TV said in 2000 by the year 2020 there will be no industrial jobs here in the states, well by the looks of it,  it might be sooner than that.......  


true.  cap and trade will be the final nail for most.  i guess they are calling it a pollution reduction bill now.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2009, 10:37:15 AM »


the main reason that drug costs are high is that almost all other countries subsidize and put caps on the amount of money that will be paid for drugs.  my solution to that would be to stop selling to them until they met market prices.  it would be a short term hardship, but a long term gain for US consumers, as prices would be spread more evenly.


How would you accomplish that?
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2009, 10:59:24 AM »

i wouldn't.  it would be something the drug companies would have to do.  instead, they made a deal so that they could sell at least some of their products in those countries.  it's not good for the people and it's not profitable for the companies.

the companies are selling their least expensive drugs to those countries and we are bearing pretty much the full burden of new drug costs.  the + side to this is that we get the new drugs.  it's not an option for many on government health care.

government control of pharmaceutical costs in national health care countries, limits drug choices for patients.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2009, 06:48:31 PM »



 I will give you a little history of something I know for a fact about the pharmaceutical industry, I worked for Monsanto from 93 til 98 when we were bought out by pharmacia, then in 2000 we were bought out by Phizer, our little plant (150 employees counting contractors) here in Augusta ga was the plant that launched celebrex, we supplied it for the world for the first 2 1/2 years until they got the plant in puerto rico running, see if a finished product in made in the united states it is taxed 40 percent, and some wonder why they haven't made puerto rico a state because if its made there, FDA regulated and all it is only taxed 8 percent, every pharmaceutical company has 3-6 plants in puerto rico (been there and seen it), our government is bought and owned by the big companies, in 2006 our plant was closed and it was the most updated and automated plant in the state, nobody wanted to buy it because they can build in puerto rico and only be taxed 8 percent, even out of country companies that get tax relief for owning here will pay less in wages and other benefits by owning in puerto rico and still be able to sale here in the states, our cost of medicines here are so high because this is where all the R&D is done, they re coop there cost from us, thats why you can get the same medication at lower cost from other countries, face it our country is run by big companies because there lobbiest are well funded to get things pushed through our government.

And yaw talk about cars and stuff when most of it is made in Mexico, economy and bad management plus help from the unions was the down fall for them. And the made in America sticker on thing is a bunch of bull, John Deere here in Ga gets all there equipment sent here already put together in those big shipping crates, they put the stickers on here and the tires and then they can legally put Made In America stickers on them, face it, a man on TV said in 2000 by the year 2020 there will be no industrial jobs here in the states, well by the looks of it,  it might be sooner than that.......  
Maybe the 40 percent tax is the key problem,not the big companies.Are these companies just supposed to eat this 40 percent?
I bet if you lived in a state that taxed your wages 8 percent you would not be in a hurry to move to a state where they took 40 percent of your earnings. Sounds like the government was making more on the Celebrex than Monsanto.The government did not assume the risk,invest the money or spend the money on the research for Celebrex. Yet they can claim 40 percent.Go figure!
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2009, 07:06:12 PM »

understand Ken but what I was getting at was puerto rico being the loop hole, they have tried to make it a state for years but it never passes, I don't hold it against the companies for making money, but its like most things here, built out of the country but the price is still like it was made here and steady goes up even though the cost for making it has dropped, puerto rico would have been a state years ago if it wasn't for the pharmaceutical industry, aw by the way when the bulk product is made in puerto rico it is then sent to Mexico to be put in pill or capsule form.
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2009, 07:10:47 PM »

If the federal government makes it a state,won't they tax the stuff there at 40 percent?Still looks like the Feds are the only ones who would benefit. Woulldn't it have made more sense to get rid of the 40 percent tax on it here?The consumer ultimately pays that 40 percent. There would be a lot more winners here by dropping the tax.
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2009, 07:28:08 PM »

thats another thing, the higher taxes drive them down there, also the wages are a lot lower but cost of living is way low compared to us, but the main thing is why would the government tax so high instead of lowering taxes and keeping jobs here, they dont care if you are working or not as long as they get theirs,  seems our own government doesn't care about it's people until election time comes around then they put on their act's, just how much money they could stick in their pockets
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2009, 08:25:54 PM »

Over time, I think what the US will see is a reversion to what existed in the 19th and early 20th century – the super rich in control of government, and the dirt poor and starving masses scraping by in hunger and ill health.  The union movement changed this, but unions either don’t exist for the new economy (i.e. knowledge workers), or are almost irrelevant for physical labor (housing, auto, steel, etc.).  I can’t remember when I last heard of a strike or other union activity.

If this happens – then the US will finally be on an even footing with the 3rd world countries in the sense that there will be masses willing to work for nil just to feed themselves – and maybe then, wages for labor will become competitive and local manufacturing will come back.

Another way to fix the problem – though this will not happen (nor should it), is for the US to tax the s%# out of companies that produce overseas cheaply and sell in the US dearly – drive them out of the sales market with tariffs, delays in approvals, unique safety requirements, etc., and let local production fill the demand gap.  This is what Japan does – and I pay for it in much higher costs of goods and services.  As a consumer, I do not like it.  If I were a local producer, I might love it.

This second way is not efficient from a world-wide perspective in the use of resources, but it does keep politicians in office and the rich still get richer – but the poor benefit too in that the overall economy, while not robust, is relatively stable.  It requires an industrial policy and the chutzpa to put bureaucrats to good use in protecting an uneven playing field vis other countries.
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2009, 02:44:22 PM »



Ann posted this on facebook and at the end he gets to my earlier points about education and jobs.  enjoy.  it's entertaining and educational.  smiley
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2009, 03:16:13 PM »

Isn't that neat, Kathy?  I want the correct spelling of that phrase he uses, my tortured spelling is 'adagnorisis peripatia' but I know that isn't right.
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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2009, 03:59:43 PM »

anagnorisis
peripeteia

and no, i can't spell, but i can google!   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2009, 04:16:38 PM »

Great video and excellent point having been made.

Here are links to the two words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagnorisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripeteia

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“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2009, 05:01:23 PM »

anagnorisis
peripeteia

and no, i can't spell, but i can google!   evil
Thank you!   I was so off I couldn't get anything to come up Smiley
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