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Author Topic: Genetics for me and not cell size made the difference  (Read 3220 times)
Joelel
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2009, 02:36:05 PM »

Joelel,
Who said they did not like the buckfast bee.

Once again, I think you are far off the mark.

The problems in agriculture in regards to importation of livestock, invasive plants, disease, insects, etc., is well documented.

Every problem we have in beekeeping including v-mites, t-mites, SHB, nosema, and probably most of the active 18 viruses, were all brought in from around the world in the past 20 years. Many of these problems were not intended for nature to handle on these levels. The progression of disease in nature would take thousands of years, and even be impossible to cross such barriers as oceans. Bees would have perhaps a thousand years before the next "problem" would be seen.

Many examples of a foreign predator or host can be seen in many agricultural areas. Right now, we have huge areas of ash trees dying due to a bug called the emerald ash borer being recently introduced.

If you think having a beekeeper travel the world such as Brother Adam did, and collect bees from around and bring them all back to one location would be good for the bee industry...then thank goodness you have signed off with "end of report". Of course which is really sad, since i think there is much for you to learn. Which is how I go into these type discussions.

I can not see how thinking because humans transport the flu around the world, that thinking the same situation for bees could be healthy for the industry. The same research, support, dollars, and other items required to allow humans the freedom to travel can not be even slightly suggested as realistic to think it be true with bees.



I think we all understand this and in any study we must take it into consideration of the out come. You just talk to people like you think they know nothing.Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 02:54:55 PM by Joelel » Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
BjornBee
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2009, 02:55:09 PM »

Joelel,
Who said they did not like the buckfast bee.

Once again, I think you are far off the mark.

The problems in agriculture in regards to importation of livestock, invasive plants, disease, insects, etc., is well documented.

Every problem we have in beekeeping including v-mites, t-mites, SHB, nosema, and probably most of the active 18 viruses, were all brought in from around the world in the past 20 years. Many of these problems were not intended for nature to handle on these levels. The progression of disease in nature would take thousands of years, and even be impossible to cross such barriers as oceans. Bees would have perhaps a thousand years before the next "problem" would be seen.

Many examples of a foreign predator or host can be seen in many agricultural areas. Right now, we have huge areas of ash trees dying due to a bug called the emerald ash borer being recently introduced.

If you think having a beekeeper travel the world such as Brother Adam did, and collect bees from around and bring them all back to one location would be good for the bee industry...then thank goodness you have signed off with "end of report". Of course which is really sad, since i think there is much for you to learn. Which is how I go into these type discussions.

I can not see how thinking because humans transport the flu around the world, that thinking the same situation for bees could be healthy for the industry. The same research, support, dollars, and other items required to allow humans the freedom to travel can not be even slightly suggested as realistic to think it be true with bees.



I think we all understand this and in any study we must take in into consideration of the out come. You just talk to people like you think they know nothing.Thank you.

Joelel.
No I do not speak as if I think they know nothing. I speak as if they might not know what I am talking about. For a small difference of a couple words, the meaning is very huge.

I have no clue who I am speaking with. I do not know your background, profession, beekeeping experience, or education.

What I do know, is that your comment "I think we all understand this...." could not be further from the truth. Everyone is on different "paths" and some further along the path of life. Most of what I know was not invented or thought of by me. It was gained by listening and reading from others. With this in mind, I am very "wordy" sometimes, and as some of my lesser fellow beekeepers may say, I make things out to be a diatribe of sorts.

But I do this, not knowing who I am jabbing with, but fully knowing there will be many readers of this discussion, many of which could be reading some of this type discussion for the first time. Making it very important to be clear.

Of course if you throw in comments like "end of report"...it makes me wonder if it is like someone suggesting they are taking their ball and going home, perhaps they have nothing else to add, or have become bored with the discussion. But those type comments usually encourage a "type" like me, like throwing more candy to a child already hopped up on a sugar high.

Have a good day.
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Joelel
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2009, 03:26:49 PM »

Joelel,
Who said they did not like the buckfast bee.

Once again, I think you are far off the mark.

The problems in agriculture in regards to importation of livestock, invasive plants, disease, insects, etc., is well documented.

Every problem we have in beekeeping including v-mites, t-mites, SHB, nosema, and probably most of the active 18 viruses, were all brought in from around the world in the past 20 years. Many of these problems were not intended for nature to handle on these levels. The progression of disease in nature would take thousands of years, and even be impossible to cross such barriers as oceans. Bees would have perhaps a thousand years before the next "problem" would be seen.

Many examples of a foreign predator or host can be seen in many agricultural areas. Right now, we have huge areas of ash trees dying due to a bug called the emerald ash borer being recently introduced.

If you think having a beekeeper travel the world such as Brother Adam did, and collect bees from around and bring them all back to one location would be good for the bee industry...then thank goodness you have signed off with "end of report". Of course which is really sad, since i think there is much for you to learn. Which is how I go into these type discussions.

I can not see how thinking because humans transport the flu around the world, that thinking the same situation for bees could be healthy for the industry. The same research, support, dollars, and other items required to allow humans the freedom to travel can not be even slightly suggested as realistic to think it be true with bees.



I think we all understand this and in any study we must take in into consideration of the out come. You just talk to people like you think they know nothing.Thank you.

Joelel.
No I do not speak as if I think they know nothing. I speak as if they might not know what I am talking about. For a small difference of a couple words, the meaning is very huge.

I have no clue who I am speaking with. I do not know your background, profession, beekeeping experience, or education.

What I do know, is that your comment "I think we all understand this...." could not be further from the truth. Everyone is on different "paths" and some further along the path of life. Most of what I know was not invented or thought of by me. It was gained by listening and reading from others. With this in mind, I am very "wordy" sometimes, and as some of my lesser fellow beekeepers may say, I make things out to be a diatribe of sorts.

But I do this, not knowing who I am jabbing with, but fully knowing there will be many readers of this discussion, many of which could be reading some of this type discussion for the first time. Making it very important to be clear.

Of course if you throw in comments like "end of report"...it makes me wonder if it is like someone suggesting they are taking their ball and going home, perhaps they have nothing else to add, or have become bored with the discussion. But those type comments usually encourage a "type" like me, like throwing more candy to a child already hopped up on a sugar high.

Have a good day.


If that be the case ,then you need to stop replying to my posts and post replies in general,then I wouldn't think you are saying everything to me. See,you reply to me,i think you are saying everything to me. If you reply in general,I can take it or leave it.I do thank you for post all of your understanding.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2009, 03:46:58 PM »

THE BUCKFAST BEE
 
At Buckfast Abbey in Devon, England, Brother Adam's primary aim was to breed a bee with high resistance to tracheal mites. When he had accomplished that, he began incorporating good traits he found in various races of bees during his extensive travels.

John,

I had originally posted this on another thread, but I guess it applies here also.

Here is my take on those extensive travels.....

Buckfast was a breed of bee that was created through mixing a bunch of bees together and selecting for traits that one particular beekeeper wanted. This beekeeper being the famed Brother Adam. He is the same beekeeper that many "Natural" type folks follow, look up to, often quote, and admire.
But wasn't Brother Adam just a "Frankenstein" character, who manipulated genetics, crossed bee lines, and created very unnatural bees in doing so? He did not seek out the best bees, or some magical small bee like the small English bee that now is being mentioned as some great bee to hold up on a pedestal, and that many now want to suggest is the almighty answer to all problems. He was not happy with what nature had provided.  What he did was crossed many races, resulting in the buckfast bee. The buckfast was heralded for years as a great bee.

I find it ironic that the same beekeepers who want to get all "natural" now, and quote brother Adam on such matters, is actually just promoting a beekeeper who did much in spreading potential disease and problems around the world in attempts to not strengthen what nature provided him through millions of years of adaptation for his particular area, but take genetics from around the world and water down the individual genetic pools by mixing them together and then spreading them around. One of the major problems we have today, is the loss of pure lines of bees and the lessening of alleles. Brother Adam was the original promoter of things today we see as a serious problem.

I know that some are gasping right now with their jaws dropped very far. How dare I speak of Brother Adam that way. If he lived today, and did exactly what he did then, today, I'd bee saying the same thing. If the English brown bee was such a great bee, then why the bringing in of hundreds of other bees to mess with. I would say the same thing today of anyone bringing in from around the world different bees, spreading disease, and doing what brother Adam did.

Some will suggest that he had "problems" and will suggest that cell size was this problem. But brother Adam did not have the technology to see many of the bacterial and viral issues we do today. We are still learning so much about these issues today. It would be a real possibility that Brother Adam had way more than he could chew, by bringing in hundreds of different types of bees around the world. Today, we know what happens when you do this. Brother Adam was probably ignorant of such "global" spread of disease, did not really believe in strengthening the local acclimatized bees, or other issues we may now see in a different perspective.


See,you posted this in reply to my post and i thought you were saying these things in red to me.Also,saying things like this makes me think you don't like the buckfast bee or Brother Adam. Sorry,other posts I thought also you were speaking directly to me also. If a post is not for me only,please post to the general public. Thank You.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2009, 03:59:34 PM »

i think, except for specific questions, we all reply to posts with the idea that many will read.  perhaps you take things to personally.  i know you have with posts i have written.  no matter how long we do a thing, there is always more to learn.  take what you wish from the posts and leave the other.  what works for one may not be the answer for all.  i don't think any of us mind clarifying a point or trying to back up a point, but sometimes you seem to want to argue just for the sake of it.  that is neither learning nor teaching.  it's just annoying.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Joelel
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2009, 04:48:27 PM »

 locked
              piano
                           pink elephant
                                                  rant
                                                             soapbox
                                                                              tumbleweed
                                                                                                 
Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
BjornBee
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2009, 05:36:00 PM »

Joelel,
My comments are not to state whether I do or do not like Brother Adam. He is dead! I never met him. I can only judge from what he wrote himself. Which if you think about it, may be a flawed way of judging another. So he is impartial to my thoughts. I am just asking of his work, and not of himself.

What I do know, is that some will consider anything written, anything stated, and make a beekeeper of the past out to be Godlike. I see it with brother Adam, Warre', and others.

I am simply implying that we need to keep in context what he was saying. We can not pull out small quotes, imply other meaning into the quotes, or assume he knew or did not know something. That is about what happened when this all started.

As for what he did, that is water under the bridge. For all his contributions, they were made at a time when other considerations were not given to things that perhaps today we would. If he wanted to do today (as example) what he did years ago, like travel around the world potentially collecting viral and bacterial concerns and spreading them about, I would be saying the same thing.

For most, to even suggest that Brother Adam could of done such a thing, is blasphemy. To suggest this mortal beekeeper made a mistake really ricks off some I'm sure.
But normally, this is too satisfy one's own agendas. We would be better served if we actually questioned what he did. That way, we could learn not just by what he did right, but perhaps what he did wrong.

As it now, someone whips out a quote from brother Adam, and for many, that is the end of the discussion. Who dares to question a quote from Brother Adam. Even if it is taken out of context.

As for your "test"  buckfast that you keep dragging out....IT IS 28 YEARS OLD! Much has changed including the development of NWC, the introduction of Russians, and far more concentration on breeding efforts since t-mites, v-mites, and other issues have come into play. I may not of said whether I liked buckfast bees, but you imply very heavily, perhaps even "slanted" in your promoting them.  If you think about it, you mentioning an outdated study from 28 years ago, is much like holding up the works of Brother Adam. Much has changed.   Wink
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Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
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Joelel
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2009, 07:08:27 PM »

Joelel,
My comments are not to state whether I do or do not like Brother Adam. He is dead! I never met him. I can only judge from what he wrote himself. Which if you think about it, may be a flawed way of judging another. So he is impartial to my thoughts. I am just asking of his work, and not of himself.

What I do know, is that some will consider anything written, anything stated, and make a beekeeper of the past out to be Godlike. I see it with brother Adam, Warre', and others.

I am simply implying that we need to keep in context what he was saying. We can not pull out small quotes, imply other meaning into the quotes, or assume he knew or did not know something. That is about what happened when this all started.

As for what he did, that is water under the bridge. For all his contributions, they were made at a time when other considerations were not given to things that perhaps today we would. If he wanted to do today (as example) what he did years ago, like travel around the world potentially collecting viral and bacterial concerns and spreading them about, I would be saying the same thing.

For most, to even suggest that Brother Adam could of done such a thing, is blasphemy. To suggest this mortal beekeeper made a mistake really ricks off some I'm sure.
But normally, this is too satisfy one's own agendas. We would be better served if we actually questioned what he did. That way, we could learn not just by what he did right, but perhaps what he did wrong.

As it now, someone whips out a quote from brother Adam, and for many, that is the end of the discussion. Who dares to question a quote from Brother Adam. Even if it is taken out of context.

As for your "test"  buckfast that you keep dragging out....IT IS 28 YEARS OLD! Much has changed including the development of NWC, the introduction of Russians, and far more concentration on breeding efforts since t-mites, v-mites, and other issues have come into play. I may not of said whether I liked buckfast bees, but you imply very heavily, perhaps even "slanted" in your promoting them.  If you think about it, you mentioning an outdated study from 28 years ago, is much like holding up the works of Brother Adam. Much has changed.   Wink

See there,I know he is dead and you can like or dislike some one rather they are dead or alive,also when I say you may not like him,I don't mean him but I mean you don't like his believeth. When I say a person don't like the buckfast bee,I'm saying they don't like the way they do things or what they do.
  Different breeds of bees are like different races of people and all breeds of anything,light complected people can stand cold weather better then other. Same with bees,some breeds of bees stand the cold better then others. It the same in many different things that all creation does.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Jack
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2009, 07:20:03 PM »

I thank you Bjorn Bee for your thoughtful and thorough presentation. I thought it was aimed at the general readership and took it as such. Not to hard to separate the wheat from the chafe as in some others writings and rants.
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Joelel
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2009, 08:06:38 PM »

I thank you Bjorn Bee for your thoughtful and thorough presentation. I thought it was aimed at the general readership and took it as such. Not to hard to separate the wheat from the chafe as in some others writings and rants.

Oh well,some are perfect and some are not,then some think their perfect and they are not.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
shemer
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2009, 02:03:35 PM »

...and russian stock... 

very often can hear `bout Russian bees here... just wondering what kind of Russians are they? We have a breed of "Middle-Russia bee", is that what you have adopted?  true they are strong and can survive not only worst weather imaginable but my guess it won`t even need a fallout shelter if anything happens. But there is one bue - they are kind of a predators - too agressive, which makes MIddle-Russia bees  impossible for backyard beekeping. They must be kept somewhere withing a secured perimeter of 3 miles. People switch to Carpatians everywhere, I guess it`s one of Carnica sort, but I can be wrong. Those you can keep in a kitchen - they are sweet like kittens. There is another side of course - medication is constantly required from varroa, nosema, etc. Good wintering is 50x50 - Russian roulet.
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2009, 02:10:26 PM »

 grin

that's a good question.  i'd be interested in the answer also if anyone knows. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
heaflaw
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2009, 06:39:04 PM »

I have read that what we call "Russians" are from the Primorsky region of Russia which is on the Pacific coast bordering China & North Korea.  Varroa mites originated in this region and spread to the rest of the world from there.  The "Russian" bees are not really a seperate race like Italians or Carniolans but are a mix of various european honey bees brought to the area by Russian settlers 150 years ago.  Varroa mites had already existed in this region and the honey bees that were brought in had to become resistant to them to survive-just like some bees in the US have become resistant to varroa in the last 20 years.
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