Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
September 18, 2014, 08:28:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat(1)  

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Small bees and lg, bees  (Read 4344 times)
Joelel
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 578


Location: Dallas,Texas


« on: September 20, 2009, 10:00:17 PM »

I was told small bees fly up to 5 miles to collect pollen and nectar,what do you say and what are the small bees ? They say small bees fly farther then lg. bees. They say lg. bees fly about 2 miles.
Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 578


Location: Dallas,Texas


« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 09:25:06 PM »

Mr Bush,Robo,tell me something,anybody ?
Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
deknow
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 743


Location: Massachusetts


WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 08:39:13 AM »

if you had wings and could fly, do you think you could fly just as far if you weighed 30-50% more?

deknow
Logged
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 08:41:59 AM »

John,
I'll assume you are talking smallcell bees... Wink

You need to understand, that it may be just easier to say nothing and let these urban legend type comments grow unchallenged and unproven. I have smallcell bees myself. But the list of magical things that smallcell bees have been claimed to do over the years is very long, and very controversial, and many times absurd. Some may not want to "debate" such items. While others could not defend such comments even though the comments continue to recycle and surface from time to time.

On the surface, I think your comments are not correct. Bees fly as far as they need too, in collecting the most nutritious and highest sugar content nectar. To say that large bees collect at 2 miles and smallcell collect at 5 miles, or to even suggest that one can and one can not, is outright false. Well before smallcell came about, studies proved that bees, and large bees at that, will if forced too, go 5 miles to nectar sources. Although the use of energy and resources drastically limits the actual surplus of honey.

So what were left with, is such items that smallcell bees may be more efficient in collecting at 5 miles, compared to large cell bees flying the same distance. I guess on the surface, it sounds reasonable. But lets face it, if your keeping bees in areas that your bees need to travel five miles, you may need to do something and move them closer as your overall production will be very limited. Unless your forcing your bees to fly 5 miles by NOT having closer nectar sources, then any debate on such issues are a waste. With both large and smallcell, bees normally fly within a mile of the hive. So it only reasons to question why anyone would be promoting or rationalizing such trivia.

What we have, are "grasps" at small items such as the minuscule differences in what bees carry and travel, in attempts to justify, rationalize, and promote smallcell bees. Very sad indeed.

I am not aware of any study that had smallcell and large cell bees in remote areas such as a dessert, where forage was controlled at some distance, and the results showed smallcell collected more. So we are left with just allowing these urban legend comments to continue with not much said..... Wink

Maybe this will cause some comments..... grin
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Joelel
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 578


Location: Dallas,Texas


« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 09:59:32 AM »

if you had wings and could fly, do you think you could fly just as far if you weighed 30-50% more?

deknow

Flying has to do with the wings,not so much size or weight.
Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 578


Location: Dallas,Texas


« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 10:45:07 AM »

John,
I'll assume you are talking smallcell bees... Wink

You need to understand, that it may be just easier to say nothing and let these urban legend type comments grow unchallenged and unproven. I have smallcell bees myself. But the list of magical things that smallcell bees have been claimed to do over the years is very long, and very controversial, and many times absurd. Some may not want to "debate" such items. While others could not defend such comments even though the comments continue to recycle and surface from time to time.

On the surface, I think your comments are not correct. Bees fly as far as they need too, in collecting the most nutritious and highest sugar content nectar. To say that large bees collect at 2 miles and smallcell collect at 5 miles, or to even suggest that one can and one can not, is outright false. Well before smallcell came about, studies proved that bees, and large bees at that, will if forced too, go 5 miles to nectar sources. Although the use of energy and resources drastically limits the actual surplus of honey.

So what were left with, is such items that smallcell bees may be more efficient in collecting at 5 miles, compared to large cell bees flying the same distance. I guess on the surface, it sounds reasonable. But lets face it, if your keeping bees in areas that your bees need to travel five miles, you may need to do something and move them closer as your overall production will be very limited. Unless your forcing your bees to fly 5 miles by NOT having closer nectar sources, then any debate on such issues are a waste. With both large and smallcell, bees normally fly within a mile of the hive. So it only reasons to question why anyone would be promoting or rationalizing such trivia.

What we have, are "grasps" at small items such as the minuscule differences in what bees carry and travel, in attempts to justify, rationalize, and promote smallcell bees. Very sad indeed.

I am not aware of any study that had smallcell and large cell bees in remote areas such as a dessert, where forage was controlled at some distance, and the results showed smallcell collected more. So we are left with just allowing these urban legend comments to continue with not much said..... Wink

Maybe this will cause some comments..... grin

Knowledge of truth is my point of concern ,not legends.Our creator created different kind of the same beings with different limitations. I'm sure our creator created different kind of bees with different limitation for a reason. Man takes bees from their normal place of habitation and put them in places where it's hard for them to survive.

To say,What we have, are "grasps" at small items such as the minuscule differences in what bees carry and travel, in attempts to justify, rationalize, and promote smallcell bees. Very sad indeed,is to say knowledge is sad.

My son told me he read this some place. I will get the link and info from him and post it. There may have been a study done on it. Our government is very good at spending millions of tax dollars on pork.
  I'm sure it is known what kind of bees are considered to be small or small cell bees.
Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
deknow
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 743


Location: Massachusetts


WWW
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 12:15:57 PM »

the only creator that put bees on 5.4mm cell size walks on two legs.

deknow
Logged
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 01:08:51 PM »

if you had wings and could fly, do you think you could fly just as far if you weighed 30-50% more?

deknow
You going to take a Cessna overseas, or a 747?   tongue

Other then a small size difference, there is no difference in the actual bee any more than there is a difference between a 6'6" tall man and a 5'8" man.

Physiologically, it would make sense that that smaller bees wouldn't fly as far, because the distance reletive to their body size is larger (if only slightly) than to a large cell bee, just as a 6'6" man will have a larger stride and be able to go further (assuming everything else being equal) than an 5'8" man.


Logged

Rick
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 01:19:13 PM »

the only creator that put bees on 5.4mm cell size walks on two legs.

deknow

Studies of bees that create all natural comb have measured cells that range from small small cell to regular large size cells (not including that of drones).  So as it may not be "natural" to have all 5.4, it is also not natural to have all 4.9.

The only creator that put the bees in square wooden boxes held together with metal pins walks on two legs too.  I'm keeping my bees on what they are on until they tell me otherwise.
Logged

Rick
deknow
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 743


Location: Massachusetts


WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 02:32:57 PM »

You going to take a Cessna overseas, or a 747?   tongue


well, it would depend.  does the 747 have a cessna engine?

from:
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/historical-data-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/the-influence-of-cell-size-part-2/
Quote
Big wings demand big muscles to move them; as far as can be seen, the mass of the flight muscles must increase as the cube of the wing length. If the weight of the body increases in this proportion, the bee will continue to be an efficient flyer; but if-as is the case with M. Baudoux’s bees-it does not, then one of two things must be happening. Either the bee will have less flying muscle than she needs to work her long wings; or the flying muscles will make up a greater proportion of her total weight. In either case, theory would indicate that very much enlarged bees should be less efficient nectar-carriers.


as honeybees get bigger (by way of enlarged comb), their weight increases in proprotion to body length, not as a cube of body length.

the "studies" that you refer to...look at every piece of litterature written before the intentional upsizing (and make no mistake about it, root wrote about it as it was happening), and you will see the same number over and over again...5 cells to the inch or smaller, or about 5.08 or smaller.

i can't say it matters to me if you think there is anything to be gained by going back down to a more natural size for worker comb, but the historical record is pretty clear.

also, i should point out that most of our frames are foundationless (heh, the bees stopped asking for foundation), and we do see a range of cell sizes...but most of the older texts speak of pretty uniform worker comb size.  i think it's more likely that the bees have changed over this time than the observations of the time being wrong.

deknow
Logged
deknow
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 743


Location: Massachusetts


WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2009, 04:31:27 PM »

let's consider a few human maladies that are seemingly unrelated:

stress fractures, cancer, diabetes, cardiovascualr disease, arthritus, acid reflux, stoke, liver disease, gallbladder issues, sleep apnea, respitory problems, foot/leg problems, gynecologcal problems, weakenen immune system (which means suceptibility to any number of disease organisms)

now, anything that purports to help with all of these diverse health problems must be snake oil...except it's not.

being overweight contributes to all of the above.  an overweight population will suffer disproprotionately from the above.  any doctor advising an overweight patient with any of these issues would prescribe losing weight.

with this in mind (and considering that people only have to walk, not fly), is it so far fetched to think that losing artifically induced (by way of enlarged comb) "bee obesity" contributes to most problems bees face?

i can't make any claim on distance flown, but i can say that our bees seem to fly in cooler temperatures.  one conversation with our inspector was:

"our bees were flying today" (it was a cold day)
"really, you must have a warm spot in your yard"

we have no warm spot, just a regular backyard shaded with trees.  fwiw, the bees in question were standard itallian stock on small cell.

deknow
Logged
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2009, 05:11:16 PM »

John,
I'll assume you are talking smallcell bees... Wink

You need to understand, that it may be just easier to say nothing and let these urban legend type comments grow unchallenged and unproven. I have smallcell bees myself. But the list of magical things that smallcell bees have been claimed to do over the years is very long, and very controversial, and many times absurd. Some may not want to "debate" such items. While others could not defend such comments even though the comments continue to recycle and surface from time to time.

On the surface, I think your comments are not correct. Bees fly as far as they need too, in collecting the most nutritious and highest sugar content nectar. To say that large bees collect at 2 miles and smallcell collect at 5 miles, or to even suggest that one can and one can not, is outright false. Well before smallcell came about, studies proved that bees, and large bees at that, will if forced too, go 5 miles to nectar sources. Although the use of energy and resources drastically limits the actual surplus of honey.

So what were left with, is such items that smallcell bees may be more efficient in collecting at 5 miles, compared to large cell bees flying the same distance. I guess on the surface, it sounds reasonable. But lets face it, if your keeping bees in areas that your bees need to travel five miles, you may need to do something and move them closer as your overall production will be very limited. Unless your forcing your bees to fly 5 miles by NOT having closer nectar sources, then any debate on such issues are a waste. With both large and smallcell, bees normally fly within a mile of the hive. So it only reasons to question why anyone would be promoting or rationalizing such trivia.

What we have, are "grasps" at small items such as the minuscule differences in what bees carry and travel, in attempts to justify, rationalize, and promote smallcell bees. Very sad indeed.

I am not aware of any study that had smallcell and large cell bees in remote areas such as a dessert, where forage was controlled at some distance, and the results showed smallcell collected more. So we are left with just allowing these urban legend comments to continue with not much said..... Wink

Maybe this will cause some comments..... grin

Knowledge of truth is my point of concern ,not legends.Our creator created different kind of the same beings with different limitations. I'm sure our creator created different kind of bees with different limitation for a reason. Man takes bees from their normal place of habitation and put them in places where it's hard for them to survive.

To say,What we have, are "grasps" at small items such as the minuscule differences in what bees carry and travel, in attempts to justify, rationalize, and promote smallcell bees. Very sad indeed,is to say knowledge is sad.

My son told me he read this some place. I will get the link and info from him and post it. There may have been a study done on it. Our government is very good at spending millions of tax dollars on pork.
  I'm sure it is known what kind of bees are considered to be small or small cell bees.

Well, I did you a favor and got a conversation started when you could not, then you come back and somehow twist my words to justify commenting "is to say knowledge is sad". Well that was a big thank you....Not!

Perhaps my comments were in regards to the many years of debate on the issue that obviously you are ignorant of. Your comments about asking "what type bees are smallcell clears any doubt as to your lack of knowledge on the issue. So I'll cut you some slack on this.

Your own followup comment regarding wings, weight and size....should be a clear indication of how this all works. Someone comments that smallcell bees are 30-50% smaller and should fly further, faster, or be more productive, by this one point alone, without much research. We can argue which can load a warehouse better, many loads from a car zipping back and forth, or from slower moving trucks with much more capacity. I think it is a wash in the end. And I said I have never heard of any CLEAR research on the matter. But this is the same pattern shown time and time again with smallcell.

First it was "No room for mites to mate and multiply", then it was "Capping time make all the difference", then studies came out showing no mite difference between smallcell and regular hives, but then something bogus called "Mite leveling" was created to justify the poor results with smallcell, now we have smallcell fly 5 miles and are better producers and large cell only fly 2 miles....which has already been found NOT to be the case in studies done long ago.

This discussion go back to the days that Lusby actually took part in OPEN discussions on the matter. a time when she claimed that unique isolated genetics, her environment, and smallcell, made smallcell bees mite resistant. But we will discount and quietly forget any past maps showing cell size in regards to what the "natural" cell size of colonies are around the country. Well forget about any claims that it was more than smallcell bees originally claimed and credited for early success with smallcell bees. Afterall, how can you promote smallcell around the country when such early comments and suggestions would indicate an impossible situation for others to follow that lived in other areas of the country.

I think you badly missed my message. Next time, please do not wrongly assume something and suggest someone stated that discounting "knowledge" was suggested. I have taken part in so many of these discussions for many years now. It may help you to read up on the history, all the past debunked claims of smallcell, and actually realize that this discussion did not start when you just happened to start a thread on a matter you knew little about.

Thank you scads.....4.9 is NOT natural, although it was claimed for years by others. It only took how long to get to this point....  Wink

This all brings back such memories. Maybe tomorrow, we can all discuss the finer points of FGMO... lau
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 05:28:09 PM by BjornBee » Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13658


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2009, 09:08:35 PM »

There have been observations of bees flying as far as 7 miles that I have heard but the observation that smaller bees fly at least 3 1/2 was made by Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey who never heard of small cell speaking of what he commonly called the "small English Bee" or the "English Brown Bee" which he says is much smaller than the Italians.

"I have mentioned the abnormal wing power of this bee.  This is not a mere hearsay report, but one I can vouch for from my own experience.  Before 1916 we regulary had a crop of heather honey without moving our bees to the  moor, but since the extinction of the English bee that has not happened.  In 1915, to give an example, the bees at our home apiary averaged close to 1 cwt. per colony, including winter stores, from the heather.  The nearest heather was some 2 1/2 miles away and at a height of about 1,200 ft. it must be assumed the bees had to fly a further mile or two into the moor, or a total distance of no less than 3 1/2 miles.  Experience has shown that this exceptional wing power is a mark of the tellian race group.""--Brother Adam, In Search of the Best Strains of Bees, pg 200

I'm sure it never occurred to him the other change, besides genetics that took place during this same time, which is the size of the foundation.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
tig
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 236


Location: philippines


« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 07:18:10 PM »


i havent been able to observe any difference in the forgaing between big sized bees and small size bees...what i have observed though is, the small sized bees seem to be able to move quicker against a predator like a wasp.  i've seen wasps hover around the entrances of some of my colonies.  the ones with big sized bees end up getting picked on more than the smaller sized....maybe the wasps have leaned which boxes are easy picking because they seem to go back to the same boxes.  i could be wrong, but each time i set up in a new site and observe, i noticed the guard bees at the entrances of the smaller sized colonies can seem to dodge the wasps.

while nature compensates in size difference eg. taller people longer legs and smaller people shorter legs etc, if you watch boxers in a ring, the bantam or fly weight boxers move faster and can seem to throw more punches than the super heavy weights who seem to move in slow motion!  just my opinion....
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13658


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 08:18:53 PM »

I never saw bees flying in high winds until I had small ones.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 08:23:10 PM »


i havent been able to observe any difference in the forgaing between big sized bees and small size bees...what i have observed though is, the small sized bees seem to be able to move quicker against a predator like a wasp.  i've seen wasps hover around the entrances of some of my colonies.  the ones with big sized bees end up getting picked on more than the smaller sized....maybe the wasps have leaned which boxes are easy picking because they seem to go back to the same boxes.  i could be wrong, but each time i set up in a new site and observe, i noticed the guard bees at the entrances of the smaller sized colonies can seem to dodge the wasps.

while nature compensates in size difference eg. taller people longer legs and smaller people shorter legs etc, if you watch boxers in a ring, the bantam or fly weight boxers move faster and can seem to throw more punches than the super heavy weights who seem to move in slow motion!  just my opinion....

Thanks tig....  rolleyes

I'll go ahead and throw this on the ever increasing list of smallcell accomplishments, magical wonders, and silver bullet claims.

Your comments are no doubt speeding through the smallcell grapevine with a foam mouth frenzy, and will soon become urban legend status overnight. At least I can look back years from now and instead of any very elusive and misquoted research that seems to never be found, I can look back and know that the whole "Smallcell bees defend the hives better" started right here on this thread.

So, smallcell bees are 30-50% smaller huh? I weigh 265 and am 6'3". So through the same reasoning, I would do far better defending myself if I was 3'2" and weighed 130 pounds.  grin  I am willing for a little research here if any 130 pound beekeepers want to step forward and take me on. Jab and jump around all you want....my money is on ME crushing any takers out there.

I'll add your observation to the ever growing list of smallcell wonders. No sense waiting for this to be repeated.

Here is another one.....I heard that nosema spores overall counts are lower in the small cell bees. Seems less crap....equates into less spores being passed around. So wah la! Smallcell bees are to be said to deal with nosema and if we just connect the dots.....we may as well just official claim that smallcell bees are completely immune to CCD!

And for safety minded folks.....the poison sacks on the smallcell bees are 30-50% smaller. Meaning far less poison being discharged. This will allow smallcell bees to marketed as "Bee safe" for the general public. I can see the marketing now...."Smallcell Bees! Their stings hurt less."  

My queens however, come back from mating flights completely not satisfied after having to deal with "small" bees. Seems they are smaller across the board. My queens like a full "experience", and not a bunch of midgets that hop around like hyperactive 6 year olds on a playground.  

And some say they do not know how urban legends get started..... lau
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2009, 08:24:45 PM »

I never saw bees flying in high winds until I had small ones.

That is a good one. Keep them coming.  rolleyes
Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
tig
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 236


Location: philippines


« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 01:04:28 AM »

bjorn, i think you took my comments out of context.  i am not an advocate of small cell foundation, but neither am i against it.  i have not tried regressing my bees at all.  i do have some colonies with smaller sized bees that come from some australian queens we brought into my country. for some reason, irregardless that we use the same size foundation as that of the kona queens, the australian bees are smaller in size.  i also have several of the kona queens that have smaller bees as compared to their other sisters.  all things being equal, same site, same feeding and same foundation sheet size....their children are smaller than the others.  these were the bees i was referring to.

another point to mention.....i have not noticed any difference in nectar or pollen gathering between the big and small sized bees.
Logged
BjornBee
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3773


Location: Lewisberry, PA


« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 06:53:15 AM »

tig,
My comments were a "tongue and cheek" comment, not really directed at you. But it was making fun of the fact that so many "casual observations" from those promoting and pushing smallcell just start as innocent comments, sounds good to fit the agenda, gets repeated a few times, grows into "urban legend" status, then just becomes "fact" over time without any clear research or proof. I've heard so many claims over the years that I am not sure if there is anything left.

At first, anyone questioning smallcell and some of the wild unsubstantiated claims were met with "You do not have smallcell" which was an easy defensive position since "regression" took three years as many said. And nobody was going to do three years work overnight just to make a point. But now, many have smallcell that can comment beyond the narrow visioned pushers of smallcell. So now, I hear of just one "observation" after another, almost like grasping at straws, looking for the next item to add to that list to justify or strengthen their position.

I'm not against smallcell, or TBH, Warre, or anything else. I think there are positives and negatives to all types of beekeeping out there. In the past however, even mentioning any less than the full fanatic position, was met with opposition and denial. I've heard smallcell claim "natural" status, as well as TBH, Warre, and whatever each group happens to be pushing.

I started making my own observation known years ago with smallcell. But then I was easily cast aside because of being less than some university level study. I was just one beekeeper. But others are coming forward with questions after keeping bees on smallcell, as well as some studies such as with J Berry. But there is always a new twist, a new angle, a new justification.

I do not label myself as a smallcell beekeeper, a TBH beekeeper, or anything else. So I do not need to justify, stretch, make up, or defend any type of beekeeping. Many however get caught up being a "type" beekeeper and need to promote agendas with making themselves special.

tig,
You may see many things when you bring in different type bees. There natural ability may have more to do with genetics, than bee size. Right now we just do not know. Just as the comments that MB made, he was referencing a very particular type bee (now extinct) that brother Adam was referencing. I personally can not cross over an observation about a smaller "English brown bee" and then just assume that if we can get other type of bees to that size, that claims of the same output will be seen. Studies and research does that. Not "proof by association".

For all the stuff that make brother Adam seemingly walk on water and makes him an expert on this or that (I think he did many great things so don't take me wrong on this) I am shocked that to further a position on smallcell, that an negative "assumption" to brother Adams ignorance was made in regards to cell size. We have no proof that cell size changes at that time made any difference at all in what he stating, or if that even played into it. Brother Adam was making an observation about a particular type bee that stood out among other bees, at a time when all things were equal in regards to cell size. That is why he wrote what he wrote. He was making a statement about a type bees that seemed to fly further than other types. Reading into it any further is just more of the same junk science that seems to go with the promotion of smallcell. I acknowledge that MB was just making a point about a bee that flew far. But it is this type of "casual" input that a first time reader may assume as some justification for small bees flying further and carry that over to all small bees. Lets not confuse the issue...brother Adam was talking about a very particular type bees, happening to be small, that flew very far. We can not just carry over that observation to say that all small bees will do that well. And we can not even go back and test what he observed. Those bees are extinct!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 07:17:43 AM by BjornBee » Logged

www.bjornapiaries.com
www.pennapic.org
Please Support "National Honey Bee Day"
Northern States Queen Breeders Assoc.  www.nsqba.com
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 08:45:14 AM »

Bjorn, are you skeptical of small cell or something?? evil
Logged

Rick
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.754 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page July 05, 2014, 12:04:42 AM