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Author Topic: Laying Worker Problem  (Read 1594 times)
wxton
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« on: September 11, 2009, 10:14:26 AM »

I have a hive that definatly has a laying worker.  I have read on here to give them a frame of open brood for three weeks and they will take care of rearing a queen.  I have no problem with that but is it too late in the year to do this and them raise a queen?  or would it be wiser to combine this hive with another and then do a split come early spring?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 10:34:18 AM »

yes it's to late.  trying that at this time of the year is not going to work for us cold winter folks.

the easiest thing to do is take the hive away from your others.  100 ft if you can  50 will do.  take an empty box or two out with you and lid.  shake off each frame of bees and brush the clean.  put empty frames in empty box with lid.  DO NOT give the bees their old hive.  let them return to the bee yard and join other hives.

if you could buy a queen, you could try introducing her with one of the ways describe on here.  a cage, or a queen introducing frame....but then you still would not have time for brood production before cold.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 11:13:54 AM »

What kathyp said  grin   The reason for it is that the laying worker(s) pretty much cannot find their way back to the hive, you need to sacrifice them because they pose a danger to the Queens.
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indypartridge
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 11:25:38 AM »

if you could buy a queen, you could try introducing her with one of the ways describe on here.  a cage, or a queen introducing frame....but then you still would not have time for brood production before cold.
I agree with everything Kathy says, just want to add that I have not had much success trying to re-queen a laying worker hive, even in springtime.
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garys520
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 12:41:28 PM »

last week I took my laying worker hive out two hundred feet and shook off the frames on the ground.  It worked great,  most of the bees flew back to their missing hive, flew around for 5 minutes, and then drifted into the two other hives.  There was a small group of bees (100 bees) that stayed were I dumped the hive, I assume the laying worker was in that group.   Thanks Beemaster.com for the help
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 12:56:23 PM »

Either way, the hive is doomed.  angry No reason not to experiment and play around a little if you have the resources to do it with.  If you have access to a queen, $30 bucks to lose, and some time, its always interesting to try and see what you can pull off.

It is possible (although difficult) to requeen a laying worker hive, more luck with queen cells.

But yes, it is difficult in any circumstance, especially so in the fall.  Which is why most beeks choose to shake them out and go with a split later on.

Rick
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Rick
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 01:11:05 PM »

To piggy back on this thread with a related question -

Is there a rule of thumb to determine last reasonable date, based on expected first frost date, to -

1) place a frame of brood to raise a queen?
2) introduce a new mated queen?

Ie., introduce a frame of brood no later than _____ days before expected first frost to have reasonable success!?

Thanks
John
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wxton
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2009, 02:09:28 PM »

Well, I live in SW Georgia, about 15 minutes from the Florida line.  We probably won't see a frost until late Ocotober/early November.  So I have about a month and a half before that happens.  Think I am just gonna shake em out and start again with them this spring.

I have no idea what happened to this hive.  it was my stongest hive until about 3 weeks ago.  I checked my hives about 6 weeks ago and everything was going great in all my hives.  About 3 weeks ago ( I was giving them 3 weeks between checks.  Letting them finish the supers they had on.)  I went into them and this particular hive had nothing...no eggs, no larva, nothing.  I have added brood every week since then and they still have not raised a queen.  Went into them yesterday and nothing but drone cells.  Oh well, at least I have 3 supers of honey to extract.  They did finish capping what they stored.
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danno
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2009, 02:57:59 PM »

To piggy back on this thread with a related question -

Is there a rule of thumb to determine last reasonable date, based on expected first frost date, to -

1) place a frame of brood to raise a queen?
2) introduce a new mated queen?

Ie., introduce a frame of brood no later than _____ days before expected first frost to have reasonable success!?

Thanks
John


Nothing about our weather this year followed a rule of thumb
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Boom Buzz
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 03:15:21 PM »


Quote
Nothing about our weather this year followed a rule of thumb

I understand, and agree.  In Colorado we have had the best, mild summer in the 10 years I've been here.  Days still in the 70's - 80's, nights in the high 40's low 50's for the next couple of weeks maybe longer.   Alfalfa and other plants still blooming strong.  Bees not taking feed, yet!

But I am still hoping someone can tell me some guideline for how late in the season it makes sense to introduce a brood frame to make queen - 30 days before expected first frost?,  45 days? or 60 days?

Reason I ask is I introduced a frame on Sept 1. into a queenless hive.  On Sept. 7 I confirmed I have two queen cells.  I know I am pressing my luck, but even if we have a first frost by October 1, it is very likely that we will have many days in the 60's and 70's all the way through November, with periods of low temps well above freezing.  I'd just like to know some guidelines.

Thanks again

John
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annette
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 03:26:56 PM »

I am not sure I completely understand your question, but I know it can take up to 28 days from the time you see a queen cell until you see any signs of the queen laying. But this time of year you may not have any drones around to mate with the virgin queen.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 03:34:24 PM »


But I am still hoping someone can tell me some guideline for how late in the season it makes sense to introduce a brood frame to make queen - 30 days before expected first frost?,  45 days? or 60 days?


I don't think that there is really a rule of thumb, although it will take 4-6 weeks to get brood, another few to get the young bees working.  Early August may be pushing it for raising a new queen.  They need to raise a lot of brood for the winter bees.

But then again, one of my rules of thumb is "what is there to lose?".  If not anything, then do it and see if it works.  If it doesn't work, then so what?  Whether you shake the bees out or see if they survive and they don't...well you are out a hive either way.  Or they could surprise you.

I did a cutout a few weeks ago, the queen just started to lay.  I'd love it if they will make it, but they are probably not going to make it, but with nothing invested...well it was fun and we got a couple of gallons of honey out of the deal.
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Rick
sarafina
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 05:15:53 PM »

Well, I live in SW Georgia, about 15 minutes from the Florida line.  We probably won't see a frost until late Ocotober/early November.  So I have about a month and a half before that happens.  Think I am just gonna shake em out and start again with them this spring.

I have no idea what happened to this hive.  it was my stongest hive until about 3 weeks ago.  I checked my hives about 6 weeks ago and everything was going great in all my hives.  About 3 weeks ago ( I was giving them 3 weeks between checks.  Letting them finish the supers they had on.)  I went into them and this particular hive had nothing...no eggs, no larva, nothing.  I have added brood every week since then and they still have not raised a queen.  Went into them yesterday and nothing but drone cells.  Oh well, at least I have 3 supers of honey to extract.  They did finish capping what they stored.

Ok..... I am confused.  Your profile location says Boston but you said you live in SW Georgia.  That makes a big difference in the answers you get that are weather-dependent, like Fall re-queening.  Good luck!
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wxton
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »

Ok..... I am confused.  Your profile location says Boston but you said you live in SW Georgia.  That makes a big difference in the answers you get that are weather-dependent, like Fall re-queening.  Good luck!
[/quote]

My profile says Boston, GA.  Maybe I should put Boston, Georgia for clarification.
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charlotte
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 06:57:33 PM »

If you are in a warm area, for sure I would try it too.  Nothing to lose right?

On a side note--has anyone ever tried using the artificial phermone stuff you can buy?  Supposedly is supposed to make a queenless colony work like they have a queen until you can get one.   I have never tried this, but I wonder if it would shut off the workers ovaries and then you could just introduce a new queen with out all the rejection headache of a laying worker hive.  Huh?  I started a thread about this once before & didn't get any replies.  Just curious.  If I ever have laying workers  (NOT that I ever hope I do!)  I think I would try this...  Dadant sells it & it's pretty cheap...although it may be getting tough to get ahold of anyone still selling queens now.---but if you could it would save you almost a month of waiting for them to maybe make a queen, hatch, breed, start laying.  Just an experimental thought!

Good Luck.
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 12:27:30 AM »

if you don't have drones, it doesn't matter where you live.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
charlotte
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2009, 12:41:52 AM »

Right- of course you need drones  Smiley  But they get kicked out later in the south don't they?  Mine have been giving them the boot for at least 2 weeks.  I don't know how or when they do this in a more southern climate..?
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jclark96
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2009, 10:22:26 AM »

I used to live in Mobile AL. I never noticed them carrying out the drones, but they prabably did. It would usualy be sometime in December before they was a frost. I also usualy found some brood in January. So, it realy is totaly dependant on your location.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2009, 08:06:45 PM »

I still have some drones and I still have some queens mating and if I made them queenless I'll bet they would raise a queen this time of year.  But a frame of open brood every week for three weeks will still set things right as far as them accepting a queen and/or being no problem in a combine.
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Michael Bush
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