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Author Topic: Supercede queens  (Read 1931 times)
drone1952
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« on: September 01, 2009, 07:33:20 AM »

Well, here I come again with the series “What stupid I am !”
Here in Romania  the beekeepers do think that supercede queens are good queens much good that swarming queens. This supercede queens are call “quiet queens change”.In my opinion this queens are not so good.Can you help me with an answer: are this queens good or not in your opinion?
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fish_stix
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2009, 08:13:50 AM »

Consider that the original queen produces the eggs for swarm cells, supercedure cells and emergency cells. Why would one be better than the others? The only case I can see would be if emergency cells were made from too mature brood, but the bees usually don't make this mistake. As long as there is plenty of pollen and nectar/honey and enough nurse bees to care for them there should be no difference. You always have to remember that the bees have been doing this for millions of years and they pretty much have the techniques down to a science by now.
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2009, 09:22:00 AM »

i don't have a problem with them.  most of the time it happens and people don't even know it.

here people like to buy queens that are marked so that they know they have the original queen.  my feeling is that if the queen is doing what she's supposed to do, i don't care if she's this years, or last years, or they made a new one.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 11:38:43 AM »

Here are my thoughts

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/

Personally, although many claim it as natural,  I think it happens much less in feral colonies than most folks believe.  I also have the personal opinion that many winter losses are due to poor quality queens as opposed to "weather" as many claim.   

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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 11:54:09 AM »

Quote
I also have the personal opinion that many winter losses are due to poor quality queens as opposed to "weather" as many claim.   


do you think time of year has anything to do with it?  if i were to have a queen superseded in august when drones are already being kicked out, i would think the queen might not be as well mated as one in june?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 01:11:35 PM »

Perhaps, but I have heard from Bjorn that just one drone provides enough sperm.  Now you don't get the genetic diversity with just one drone. Can the bees detect the genetic diversity in a queens laying habit it and judge her on that huh  I suppose so.   But I see time and time again emergency queens from April-July that are claimed as "great" queens being dispatched in the Fall when the weather starts getting cooler.
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Finski
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 09:40:00 AM »

.
My experience is that they are not good. They are not selected by the beekeeper. I have regretted every time when I have left
those queen to next summer.

Often the queen has problems and workers want a new queen. So, you get an ofspring from
problematic queen. That is not the way how breeding happens.
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 11:08:53 AM »

Of course there is always the issue of the genetics you wish to have.  But assuming the queen is the genetics you wish to have, supersedure queens are fed and cared for as the resources allow.  If those resources are plentiful the queens turn out well.  If they are not the queens do not turn out well.  Emergency queens are even more likely to be raised at a time when there are inadequate resources and so they sometimes are not as good.  But if raised with plenty of resources they are fine.  Swarm queens, of course, are raised under the best circumstances of labor force to feed them and resources to feed them and so are more consistently good.
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Michael Bush
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Finski
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 01:21:54 AM »

Of course there is always the issue of the genetics you wish to have. 

That is queen breeding, to select the mother and drones.

Most of beekeepers do not select their strains. They just keep hives.

But my experience is that superceded queens are not good, they are ordinary.
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 09:24:06 PM »

I'm a newbie with no experience raising queens.  I hope to start next season and have been doing much reading.  Anyway I just got done reading Scientific Queen Rearing by G. M. Doolittle. 

In his observations he claimed that when there was good nectar source available that these queens were as good and performed as well and lived as long as any he had seen.  Before he perfected the queen rearing system he is now known for, he would keep stealing the queen cells and put fresh eggs from his best queens in and thereby produce the best quality queens possible before the old queen finally failed thus ending this queen producing colony.  And he said they were of the best quality as any swarm cell queens. 


If you have lots of time here is the link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xJ1bAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=queen+rearing&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

also I will add that a search in google books will provide you lots of free literature from the past.  You can filter these to full view books by selecting full view only.

ROBO,  When you say emergency queens you are not taking about superseded queens are you?

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Robo
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 09:45:39 PM »

ROBO,  When you say emergency queens you are not taking about superseded queens are you?


that is correct,  they are not the same, and emergency are the worst.
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"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


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