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Author Topic: two questions  (Read 1578 times)
kathyp
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« on: August 27, 2009, 06:47:02 PM »

come to mind.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=659638

1.  if this were the homeschooled child of an atheist would the same standard be applied?

2.  what is the role of public school?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 07:04:20 PM »

I thought Church and State were supposed to be separate nowadays? Maybe now the Church will sue and demand her release from public school?

Scott
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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 07:41:39 PM »

Church and state are never really separate. It's an illusion for the most part.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 09:26:19 PM »

come to mind.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=659638

1.  if this were the homeschooled child of an atheist would the same standard be applied?


I'd say that would depend on which state the case was tried in.

Quote
2.  what is the role of public school?


To indoctrinate, for the most part   evil
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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 09:30:07 PM »

>>>>To indoctrinate, for the most part   evil <<<<

The horns aren't needed when the statement is the pure truth, as that one is.
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 06:34:51 AM »

Can't fault the Court too much on this since it's the divorced parents who asked the Court to make a decision. When you go to a secular institution and ask for a decision, expect a secular answer.
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Irwin
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 08:51:51 AM »

I can't get the link to work.
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 12:55:11 PM »

Interesting - the link opens for me just fine.
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BeeHopper
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 01:10:30 PM »

come to mind.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=659638

1.  if this were the homeschooled child of an atheist would the same standard be applied?
     I certainly hope so, had there been cases that show otherwise ?
2.  what is the role of public school?
     To educate according to an agenda and that depends whose in charge

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deknow
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 05:05:03 PM »

mmm, if this (from the story) is accurate:
Quote
The guardian also noted that Amanda's relationship with her father suffered because she did not think he loved her as much as he said he did due to the fact that he refused to "adopt her religious beliefs."

of course someone could frame "you only love me if you belive as i do" as a religous belief, in this case,  i don't think it is.  i don't know anything about either parent, except that this is something that her mother either agrees with (which is scary), or something the mother is willing to be a barrier between her daughter and her ex husband (the daughter's father) because it meets other needs (which is even scarier).

of course there are hundreds of possibilities of other details that would reveal all kinds of truths...but this is not simply a case of "she is learning christianity at homeschool".

deknow
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 06:33:49 PM »

divorce is messy.   no telling what was going on between the parents.  the part i found troubling was the advocates belief that the child needed exposure to other beliefs (paraphrased).  that seems like it could be a bit of a slippery slope and seems in line with that UN stuff that i posted way back.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »

kathy, glad to see you still with us Smiley

yes, it's always a slippery slope, but sometimes a line has to be drawn.  in this case, if she is homeschooled by her mother, and she and her mother have this unified "religious" belief that the father can't love his daugher if he doesn't share their religious beliefs, well, even giving all kinds of slack for all kinds of religious beliefs, this isn't a healthy situation for the daugher.
although i hate to draw hard conclusions from limited evidence, i'd wager that this particular "religious belief" is merely a manipulation by the mother wrt her daughter and ex husband.  my guess is the court saw this, and decided that a broader environment was in the girl's best interest.

deknow
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 10:01:04 PM »

be nice to know more.

i am uncomfortable in general with the state making the determination, and dictating the cure.  why not send her off to dance school, or make her spend time in a craft class at the community center.  the idea that the public school system should be used to 'soften' a child's religious beliefs is....wrong.

how far should the state intruded between parent, child, and church.  should the school system be an arm of the court system for social adjustment?  why not have the child spend more time with dad? 

i know there are not answers here.  just questions to think about.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 10:35:37 PM »

the idea that the public school system should be used to 'soften' a child's religious beliefs is....wrong.

really?  no matter what the religious belief is?  even when it's a religious belief instilled by the homeschooling mother that her daddy doesn't love her?  in a case like that (which is what i think this is, and what the court saw), i'm glad the little girl has a father who is divorced from the mother who is looking out for her best interests.  for a mother to impose that on a little girl is cruel, and, imho, shows her to be unsuitable to be homeschooling this child.

that is how i feel about this specific case...i also thought it was good to take the children "adolf hitler" and "aryan nation" (i think was the girls name) away from their parents.

as i said, some things are over a line, but all are a slippery slope.  philisopically i'm opposed...but i think the children in these two cases were helped by the intervention, they have a better shot at life as a result.

deknow

deknow
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 10:51:22 PM »

Quote
even when it's a religious belief instilled by the homeschooling mother that her daddy doesn't love her

of course, we don't know what the child said, or was lead to say.  we also don't know the leanings of the case worker.  there are some people (even on here) who foam at the mouth when religion/faith are brought up.  we don't know the leanings of the judge. 

even if you read it correctly, why not mandate more time with the father, or other outside activities?  why, specifically, public school?  especially when the childs test scores are reported to be high.  if this is a social and not educational matter, you have just turned the public school into a social re-education tool.  sound familiar?

i happen to think that's what public school is already.  i think this decision might justify my belief.

Quote
...i also thought it was good to take the children "adolf hitler" and "aryan nation" (i think was the girls name) away from their parents

i think the parents were ignorant and i feel for the kids, but what if i named my child pol pot, or alaxander, or for that matter, jesus christ?  any of those names would be offensive to someone.  is it now the courts place to pick the acceptable names for our children?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Irwin
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 11:52:50 AM »

I can't get the link to work.
It worked today.
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