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Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 16268 times)
beecanbee
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« Reply #120 on: September 04, 2009, 06:46:25 AM »

there is a place for some interstate regulation of those things that cross states

I understand your position - but most everything crosses state lines, and if it doesn`t, people do.  I would not want to take on more personal responsibility every time I cross a state line.  Say I want to purchase asprin, do I need to learn the purity regulation for each state I visit?  I hope not.

And 50 states each duplicating what the federal goverment does (of course with exceptions, as some states opt out of that control) would be quite wasteful of manpower.

The states have given the federal goverment approval to do what it does - through representation.  Don`t like what your congressman does - get rid of him/her.  I would not worry too much about how we got where we are now.
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
kathyp
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« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2009, 11:15:35 AM »

Quote
And 50 states each duplicating what the federal government does (of course with exceptions, as some states opt out of that control) would be quite wasteful of manpower

this would be true if you were in favor of a heavy federal government.  the whole point is that most of what the feds do, they should not.  we are designed to be different so that people have choice.  if i don't' like the schools, taxes, and government of this state, i can move to another.  

state politics is local politics.  if all that you do is at the state level, the control of the people is far greater.  when the control is at the federal level, you are at their mercy.  look at what this government is doing outside of congress (outside of our representatives).  while i understand that we are not a democracy, when you have a federal government operating without the input, but with the consent of the representatives, you are pretty much back to having a ruler.

something that happened this week that should demonstrate the power of this prez and i think a lot of folks missed it.  NP was adamant that there be a public option in the health care bill.  even with representatives telling her that it was unpopular in corn country, she still said no bill without it.  all of a sudden, the president decides to give a speech and rumor has it he'll back off the public option.  NP still swears it will be in there.....and then she doesn't.....

a president has limited power to grant representatives anything.  congress pretty much grants itself whatever they want, usually at our expense.  yes NP is in the same party and might not want to go against her presz, but still.....
as much as i detest NP and her politics, when i saw her come out and back off the house plan, it gave me the creeps.


Quote
You gave up your individuality when you united to form The United States. I cant help but wonder what America would be like if it was a land mass with 49 countries. The Americas would have rivaled Europe for diversity in culture. I wonder if you would have lived together peacefully, or would wars and economics have led to north south east west coalitions?


some things, yes.  very few.  remember that link i gave you to the Constitution?  read the 10th amendment after you read those very few things in the constitution that the federal government is responsible for.

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I would not want to take on more personal responsibility every time I cross a state line.  


and yet you do.  speed and traffic laws are different.  gun carry laws are different.  in NJ i almost got a ticket for letting the RC vehicle idle for more than 3  minutes.  while i agree that we should be able to buy aspirin with confidence, you would have no problem pooping over to canada and reading the labels before buying aspirin?  you really have to read labels in mexico!  
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
BoBn
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« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2009, 02:03:42 PM »

. .   it is the left that consistently attacks our constitution, not the right.


They both are doing an equally good job of trashing our Bill of Rights. 
http://www.actionamerica.org/constitution/y2kbor.shtml
Behind all of the rhetoric they are 2 socialist parties.  They just want to control the country and spent money in slightly different ways.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=192
As well as trashing the Constitution, the Federal government has also decided to rewrite history and rewrite physics.

If you only read only what you believe ...
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"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."
--Thomas Jefferson
kathyp
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« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2009, 02:14:42 PM »

you lost me with the truther crap.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2009, 02:47:03 PM »

you lost me with the truther crap.
Kathy. I for one don't need PM to tell me what really happened. My BIL was IN the Pentagon on 9/11....and has the burn scars to show for it from dragging some of the less fortunate ones out.

But he is correct in that very few of our folks in DC are our friends...regardless of which side of the aisle they sit on.
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kathyp
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« Reply #125 on: September 04, 2009, 03:23:03 PM »

Quote
But he is correct in that very few of our folks in DC are our friends...regardless of which side of the aisle they sit on.


no disagreement there.  i think the whole lot of them need to be run out.

the thing that makes me mad about that whole 9/11 truth thing is that they act like this came out of the blue.  if you believe that something is an aberrant occurrence, then i guess you want to find some explanation that fits your belief.

if you understand that this was an attack in a series of attacks, then it should have been no surprise and needs no further explanation.  if you believe it was the culmination of a series of attacks, you are as big a fool as those who were surprised.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #126 on: September 04, 2009, 05:16:50 PM »

Did you see a picture of the guy that toted the gun in OK?  Probably not.  The mainstream media only showed a picture of the rifle but purposely did not show the identity of this "gun toting extremist redneck".

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/2009/08/20/manufactured-racial-tension-ms-nbc-contessa-brewer-vile-race-baiters-and-news-liars/

With news media like this who needs sit-coms?  Watch the MSNBC report and tell me they are not biased or trying to "trick" people into being divided.  It's a disgrace to call themselves a news media and should just call themselves what they are, merely propaganda machine for the liberal agenda.
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mick
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« Reply #127 on: September 05, 2009, 05:25:48 AM »

What great vids, I watched both.

He is exactly the type of idiot you do not want to have a gun. Exercise your rights, and carry a spare clip just in case.

Hes got picked on as a kid written all over him. Psychotic attention seeker, odds on to be single.

I doubt he can see past the end of the barrel, no wonder he has a hand gun as well. Sounds he struts around his town open carrying, enjoys being stopped by the cops. Hes known as crazy Willie in his home town and was voted most likely to cross dress by his school mates.

If he is an example of the "well armed Militia" that exists to ensure err umm freedom and democracy, start building the bunker.
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iddee
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« Reply #128 on: September 05, 2009, 09:46:28 AM »

WOW!!!  From two quick, edited videos, Mick can completely diagnose a man's total personality and lifestyle. Mick must be a total genius, along with a bit of magician.

"or work for ms-nbc"

I think his post about says it all. There is no reason to post on this thread any longer, emotion has taken over and logic is out the window.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kathyp
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« Reply #129 on: September 05, 2009, 10:40:23 AM »

mick, i think you missed the point.  what MSNBC did not want you to see was that the guy was black.  what you and they fail to realize is that he carried the gun to make a point about the way this government is trampling our bill of rights.  he was interviewed.  he was calm, articulate, and made great points about protecting or losing our rights.  he was no where near where the president was, or would be.  it was a public gathering area away from where the prez was speaking.

your post is a great example of why so many in this country are so out of touch with what is happening.  if your news comes from the MSM, and you do not challenge their manipulation of information through artful editing, you are bound to have the view of the world that they wish you to have.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beecanbee
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« Reply #130 on: September 07, 2009, 03:57:10 AM »

if i don't' like the schools, taxes, and government of this state, i can move to another.  


While I understand that people are somewhat mobile - one should not need to move to another state to obtain a level of assurance that can otherwise be obtained.

Quote
you would have no problem pooping over to Canada and reading the labels before buying aspirin?

Canada has regulation at the national level - not territory.

 
Quote
the whole point is that most of what the feds do, they should not.  we are designed to be different so that people have choice.

We live in an increasingly competitive international economy and everything that contributes to the health of the US economy (education, health, business regulation, tax rates, infrastructure, product labeling, weights & measures, etc.) affect America's competitiveness.  A strong and internationally competitive US economy is advantageous for all Americans.  Most other (economically advanced) countries have strong national programs that parallel those of the US.  Inviting 50 states to go their own way – when the federal government can do it collectively would hurt America's competitiveness. 

Government breeds corruption – both at the national level and local level – but from my experience, the lower you go – the greater the opportunity for corruption to succeed undetected. 

The US federal government is in a sense an insurance company for the US – protecting against adversaries, assisting with national disasters, preventing or ameliorating against the effects of man-made disasters (such as the current financial fiasco).  As with any insurance scheme, scale reduces costs for all.

Centralizing controls and services at the higher levels of government is not only cost effective, but reduces opportunity for fraud, and increases international competitiveness – all leading to higher standards of living.

An extension of this, would be allocating even more – to world bodies.  There are numerous G-7’s / G-8’s / G-20’s gatherings that inform international policies, and there is the WHO, and I am sure a few more that can serve as examples. 

To extend the example, as I travel, I do not want to need to analyze Aspirin quality – whether in Canada, one of the US states, Japan, China, Bangladesh, or Mexico.  Because strong national controls are in place in Canada, the US (FDA) and Japan – I am safe, but probably not so in China, Bangladesh, or Mexico.  The point being - that advanced countries can do it right at the national level - so why invite third-world status for (some) US states? (As for alcohol, remove the regulations, and I have some old lead repaired radiators that I am just itching to put into service.)

Yes I know that the US government can seem oppressive – particularly when seen through the lens of an individual.  And of course there are many areas of life where there is no national benefit to centralized control, or even any control at all.  But for the majority of the population, the US government through the services and regulations it provides, delivers real economic benefit to Americans.

Yes - that pesky constitution relagates the states to do more - and constitutional challenges do sometimes succeed, but for the services and regulation that the federal government is providing, it seems that the courts have taken a different view.  For the benefits obtained, I generally like that.


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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
mick
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« Reply #131 on: September 07, 2009, 04:19:42 AM »

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,24622.0.html

do doubt due to the powers of the 2nd amendment.
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kathyp
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« Reply #132 on: September 07, 2009, 10:37:12 AM »

Quote
one should not need to move to another state to obtain a level of assurance that can otherwise be obtained

this one sentence sums up the difference in thinking. 

if you seek assurance from your government, then yes, you will want a powerful federal government.  one that can provide all, and one that can be blamed for all failures.

i want the government to do what it is constitutionally mandated to do, then get the heck out of my way so that i can be as successful as my motivation makes me.  if i fail, i own it.  if i succeed, i own that too.

in all my life, i have never heard an immigrant (including my family) say that they came to this country because they like the federal government.  every single one has come because this country gives them a chance to succeed.  gives them the chance

people do go to France and England for the welfare.  i don't know if Canada has gotten to that point.  it's starting to happen here with some folks.


while i am not a fan of illegal immigration, i heard a story last night that i completely understood.

an American family that had been living overseas, had an Ethiopian nanny.  the family had come to the US for a visit and the nanny had disappeared. apparently she got here and recognized her one chance at a new life. 
i wish her well.  she may be one of the last to believe that this is the land of opportunity. 

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2009, 06:07:06 PM »

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,24622.0.html

do doubt due to the powers of the 2nd amendment.


Yes mate you can buy these here.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_106_665&products_id=1653&osCsid=c10a7e83d0d79323edc246f5fa9a26a1
 Live fire a lot of fun !!
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Little John
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"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history."
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Quote from chronicle of  Marcus Lucanus of the Roman civil war: Caesar said :
"Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!
Caesar men cheered :
" Hail Caesar! We who are about to die salute you!
Vibe
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« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2009, 08:10:23 PM »


Oh heck...for that matter, we at least can still build our own at home.
Cheesy

www.homegunsmith.com


At least anything except NFA stuff.
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beecanbee
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« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2009, 08:20:14 PM »


if you seek assurance from your government, then yes, you will want a powerful federal government.  one that can provide all, and one that can be blamed for all failures.

Kathy, I fear that you over simplify my position – but, yes – I do want effective and efficient government, even if that makes it large, and especially where exercising individual responsibility would not be effective.  Size may just be a necessary attribute, and in lieu of greater evils.

Quote
  one that can provide all, and one that can be blamed for all failures.

Not sure where this came from - but, all individuals need to provide as much as they can for themselves, and accept personal responsibility - but hopefully within a framework that more or less matches against the best practices and economics of the advanced economies of the world.


Quote
  people do go to France and England for the welfare.  i don't know if Canada has gotten to that point.  it's starting to happen here with some folks.

If it is - then surely it is because of state or local programs?  I could be wrong - but I am unfamiliar with any national welfare programs that might entice freeloading.

Quote
  the land of opportunity. 

Here Here!  America is still a great land of opportunity.  I wouldn't want to see that change.


[/quote]
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
kathyp
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« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2009, 08:45:23 PM »

Quote
Not sure where this came from


if you depend on the government and the government lets you down, you have someone to blame (katrina).  if you depend on yourself and you let you down, you have only you to blame.  many people would rather have someone else to blame smiley

Quote
effective and efficient government

effective and efficient do not belong in the same sentence with government.

i can not think of one program currently run by the government that is both effective and efficient.  most are neither.  the one that is effective is the military, but efficient it probably is not.  

the biggest problem i have with more government, besides it's intrusion into  my life, is that government can give nothing without first taking.  government earns nothing and produces nothing.  when it takes from those who do, and gives to those who do not, it creates a disincentive on both ends.  on the producer end it takes the incentive to work hard and achieve more.  why work harder if the government will just take more?  on the receiving end, it removes the incentive to work at all.  why work to better yourself if someone is going to take care of all your needs?

when we prop up the weakest part of society at the expense of the strongest, eventually the society will fail.  while we must take care of those who can  not care for themselves, i don't think we should feel an obligation to care for those who will not care for themselves.  Darwin was not wrong about everything.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
beecanbee
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« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2009, 09:38:20 PM »


Got Katrina.  But then the disaster that was Katrina was in large part the doing of the Corps of Engineers – in not maintaining the levee system, so hardly an individual responsibility.  Maybe, the population should have seen it coming and have abandoned New Orleans altogether, and after the event – they undoubtedly needed to do more for themselves.  But then again, government as an insurance mechanism for disasters of this magnitude seems to be a valid role to me.  The cleanup and recovery didn’t need to be federal.  Now after it as all died down - I would favor a policy of abandondment for New Orleans - no more federal assistance for any repeat disasters of the same sort there - let nature reclaim the land.


Quote
effective and efficient do not belong in the same sentence with government.

Please remember infrastructure (the framework of laws, regulations, controls).  Without infrastructure we simply have chaos.  That is what government provides that cannot be provided by individuals.  Of course it can be provided by states, but then again duplication is inefficient.  So yes – effective and efficient needs to be the goal of government, albeit hard to achieve.

Quote
when we prop up the weakest part of society at the expense of the strongest ...  i don't think we should feel an obligation to care for those who will not care for themselves.  Darwin was not wrong about everything.

I totally agree with you on this one.
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
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« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2009, 10:15:48 PM »

You gave up your individuality when you united to form The United States.

Not exactly. Individuality resides within the individual. You are human and I am human, but we are not alike. You have your individual rights, and I have my individual rights. These are dictated by our respective governments. Then there are what some believe are God-given rights, and that gets into another realm altogether.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #139 on: September 07, 2009, 10:22:12 PM »


Please remember infrastructure (the framework of laws, regulations, controls).  Without infrastructure we simply have chaos.  That is what government provides that cannot be provided by individuals.  Of course it can be provided by states, but then again duplication is inefficient.  So yes – effective and efficient needs to be the goal of government, albeit hard to achieve.

Quote
when we prop up the weakest part of society at the expense of the strongest ...  i don't think we should feel an obligation to care for those who will not care for themselves.  Darwin was not wrong about everything.

I totally agree with you on this one.

Our government has far surpassed providing a framework and equitable  laws to maintain a civil society. It has moved heavily into the realm of social engineering, and that is in direct opposition to the laws of nature (Darwinian ideas).
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