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Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 16845 times)
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2009, 03:41:22 PM »


not only are we to be armed to protect our country from invaders, but also from a repressive government.

Of course it was much more effective against the Japanese in WWII than it has been against the takeover from DC. But the Japanese were convinced that we would USE them.
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2009, 05:36:31 AM »

Thanks KP! I will read the whole thing, I kinda like to read acts. learn all sorts of tings.
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2009, 10:06:58 AM »

fortunately our founders were believers in brevity!  smiley

it's a short read.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2009, 10:54:51 AM »


Now Im no expert on the US Constitution lol, but Ive always found the phrase a bit vague. To understand the exact meaning you need to see a transcript of how it has been inserted and for the life of me, seeing a digital copy of your Constitution is not easy. Perhaps it was deliberately vague given the time. Do the words "This Constitution guarantees ..... preceed the amendment? Something has to, why is it never cited. It might be "With regard to the threat of invasion or attack, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms etc.


My one thought to add is that the Constitution (as like the Bible) needs to be vague in order to withstand hundreds and thousands of years of social growth. If anyone was to micro manage and DATE material to a given time period, then eventually the document would simple outdate it self.

The US Forefathers were well aware of that and chose to simplify the meanings rather than nitpick details that would constatly be judged.

Of course THAT can be a double edged sword too - imagine "todays" interpretation and that a hundred years from now when the average home owner will by a laser gun that vaporises the assailant. Seems implausable now, but imagine eliminating an intruder and erasing all signs of his existance in a single shot. Such a weapon may not be leagal in all states, but that has NEVER stopped gun owners from buying stuff off the street and never will.

Sure... protecting oneself is typically the main reason people argue the 2nd amendment, but I still will never understand the NRA's stance on anything up to rocket launchers, flame throwers,  heat seeking missles and IEDs (maybe stretching a few of those) but the National Rifle Association sure is as over-the-top as PITA, MAMBLA, GREEN-PEACE, ACLU and other organizations that bring in millions of dolloars and dues a year - I often wonder where their loyalities lie.

All I know is IF I were to break into someone's home, I deserve to get blown away. I think if I tresspass that zealist gun owners taking aim at my head is over doing it.

ABOUT THE REPLY THAT IF TEACHERS HAD WEAPONS AT THEIR DISPOSAL TO PREVENT STUDENTS SHOOTING UP SCHOOLS. I just don"t live where i have ever seen the need for a locked teachers desk with a loaded pistol< just anticipating a nutjob to slaughter the classmates. I know any crime can happen anywhere, the news always has to have some sap on TV saying, "That sort of thing NEVER happens in this neighborhood!" well guess what, it does - all the time somewhere.

I can see a weapons stash in the principal's office for that horrid day that all hell breaks loose, but having selective or all teachers bearing guns is just waiting for a teacher to go nuts and start shooting.

Locally, at grade school and highschool level (as I'm sure in college) there are metal detectors and police officers assigned to schools - not because of anything happening here, but the major stories that we all know about. Again, the terrorists win, even if they are a couple of metal-head outcasts from a local highschool.

Whenever a fire cracker goes off in this country in a crowded area, especially major cities - every Homeland Security Force, local police and other goverment agencies come piling out of their hiding spots where 1 day out of a decade they actually do something. Meanwhile, we spend billions keeping our infrastructure safe from unknown threats that may not exist - again, the terrorists win.

Better safe than sorry is a basic no brainer, but at what cost. Between the wars of the last 7 years and the cost of HLS money, we have dug such a hole that we don't have to wire-transfer money to China (our major backer of our debt) we simply need to toss the check down the hole and it will arrive to them eventually - that is how big the hole we have dug is.

I fear the day (and it is coming) when the dollar is no longer the base of a barrel of crude oil, switching to the Euro - on that day, look for China to say they want some or much of their money back - and the printing presses (which go 24/7/365 now) just to pay for the mortgage buyouts will overheat and burst into flames.

The term Borrowing against your Debt always fascinated me, to think the scummiest coworker who earns what I do, buys drugs and endless booze and never has a penny to his name theoretically has greater worth that I do because his debt has value floors me. Banking is a den of shysters (sic?) and any old way to toss a note around works, whether it is worth the paper it is printed on or not, just doesn't matter any more.

One last thought - I heard where a man wanted to get rid of his CLUNKER and take advantage of the cash for clunker bailout - a porkbellied add-on to the car manfacturer multi-billion dollar deal (although I know clunker money is aimed for dealers, not manufacturers) but let's face it, where do the dealers get their cars from - ugh. Anyway, this fellow called and was promptly told he didn't qulalify because his car didn't run at all - he literally got NO miles per Gallon, so he was exempt - so he spent $500 to get it running enough to get to the dealer finally and got his $4500 incentive. God Bless America - if a car that doesn't run at all isn't a clunker, than I don't know what is.

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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2009, 11:39:59 AM »

Quote
I think if I tresspass that zealist gun owners taking aim at my head is over doing it.


center mass is better.  easier to hit.

the thing to remember about the constitution and bill of rights, is that they were written limit federal government.


http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/01/13/lang.htm

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

here are two cases of shootings stopped and without a shot being fired by the armed school students or staff.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2009, 01:25:51 PM »

While the District of Columbia v. Heller SCOTUS decision ( February 13, 2008) was a relatively major breakthrough, the reigning decision is still US v Miller. The 2nd Amendment test of whether a firearm is "covered" by the 2nd Amendment is/was the "Of use to the Militia" test. By this very test, Miller "should" have been decided differently (thus leading to the repeal of the NFA of 1934), but it got decided as it did due to (as the decision states) a LACK of presented evidence that the weapon under discussion (which was a sawed off double barrel 12 gauge) was "of use to the Militia".
Of course it is "of use to the Militia" - our LEOs and Military use them all the time - now as then. And the "Militia" is EXPECTED to be familiar with, if not proficient with, the weapons they bring with them...That logistically the authority calling them up can supply ammo for.

So one (who hasn't read the Miller decision lately) might ask
"Why did they decide the way they did then?"

Quite simply, because, since Miller was decided long before the Miranda decision that guaranteed a claimants "right to council" - Miller was NOT represented in that case AT ALL. So naturally the Government got all it wanted without concession, other than the verbiage in the decision which (if one reads between the lines) voiced that "This is not right, but we are bound by current precedent to rule this way".

So basically, the 2nd "should" protect everything with the possible exception of crew served weapons....and there are the cannon that Ben Franklin purchased from France that might even argue in favor of those.

However, While one might very well have the right (and possibly the duty) to "Keep and Bear Arms" - that in NO WAY absolves anyone from the responsibilities of safe handling, and the unlawful DISCHARGE (or threat of discharge) of said armament should STILL be met with decidedly steep penalties.
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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2009, 02:52:08 PM »

from beemaster:
Sure... protecting oneself is typically the main reason people argue the 2nd amendment, but I still will never understand the NRA's stance on anything up to rocket launchers, flame throwers,  heat seeking missles and IEDs (maybe stretching a few of those) but the National Rifle Association sure is as over-the-top as PITA, MAMBLA, GREEN-PEACE, ACLU and other organizations that bring in millions of dolloars and dues a year - I often wonder where their loyalities lie.


Beemaster
For your information my friend, the NRA does not advocate the use of weapons you have indicated above, nor are they in the same league as PETA and the rest. I am a member of the NRA and know personally hundreds of others who are the most level headed folks you could meet from all walks of life. Your reply is insulting to those who support the Constitution of the United States of America and it is insulting to the NRA, the very same folks as well as other Organizations that give you the Freedoms from Tyranny.  I respect your opinion and I certainly hope that you will enjoy the Freedom you have now because it will not last.

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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2009, 02:58:25 PM »

ohhhh.  missed that.

beehopper is correct.  you are way off base with that one BM.  the NRA, of which i have been a member for many years, is about promoting shooting sports, training for safe gun handling, and protecting the 2nd.  what you posted is left wing and left wing media hype. 

their loyalties lie with protecting our constitutional rights.  it is the left that consistently attacks our constitution, not the right.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2009, 03:19:05 PM »

Quote
Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis," according to a magazine editorial written by Church.

After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. Senator, became the fledgling NRA's first president.

An important facet of the NRA's creation was the development of a practice ground. In 1872, with financial help from New York state, a site on Long Island, the Creed Farm, was purchased for the purpose of building a rifle range. Named Creedmoor, the range opened a year later, and it was there that the first annual matches were held.

So you see, the founding aspect to the NRA was to improve the abilities of the Unorganized Militia - the ordinary citizens from which a short notice (defensive) fighting force could be drawn from in time of need. That primary purpose has not changed.
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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2009, 05:22:47 PM »

But on the other hand.... If the second amendment is about the people being able to defend themselves from the government gone bad, then the people would have the right to arm themselves with anything the military has.
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« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2009, 06:59:13 PM »

which i would not have a problem with.  whenever you begin restricting things, you begin on a course that is dangerous.  why should i not be able to own a military weapon that can protect what is mine? 

as a practical matter, a nuke would not be good for home protection and it could very well put others at risk.  it requires maintenance and monitoring that the average homeowner can not do.  restricting nukes is reasonable.  however, if i wished to own a tank, etc., why not?  i have a big piece of property  grin  i would gladly put it in servicefor the protection of my country if it were needed.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2009, 10:18:14 PM »

"Whenever a fire cracker goes off in this country in a crowded area, especially major cities - every Homeland Security Force, local police and other goverment agencies come piling out of their hiding spots where 1 day out of a decade they actually do something."

I could comment on the NRA opinions also, but I wont.  That was covered, and well.  I am sure, at least I hope, the comment was "tongue in cheek".  I won't let it bother me too much.  It seems that is the mindset of too many of us.  Most people have no idea of the wave of crime that we hold back for them.  "hiding spots"Huh?  "1 day out of a decade"Huh?  You must not know any REAL cops, or soldiers.   

I do NOT hide.  I don't know any of us that do.  You might see me running the other way, when you are running from something, but only because I will save you.  I guess I have MANY of those "one days", because I am constantly doing something...  BUT I guess the sheep usually don't have a clue that the sheepdog killed a wolf.  They just baa and baaaaa away when the wolf lurks in view.  And they wonder why the sheepdog isn't there when they want them....because they only want them when they need them.....they (the sheepdog) must have been hiding.....baaaaaaaaaaa  baaaaaa where is my sheepdog? 

PS...  I haven't written a ticket in years.  I must have been hiding... shocked or........killing wolves LOL
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« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2009, 10:48:55 PM »

which i would not have a problem with.  whenever you begin restricting things, you begin on a course that is dangerous.  why should i not be able to own a military weapon that can protect what is mine? 

as a practical matter, a nuke would not be good for home protection and it could very well put others at risk.  it requires maintenance and monitoring that the average homeowner can not do.  restricting nukes is reasonable.  however, if i wished to own a tank, etc., why not?  i have a big piece of property  grin  i would gladly put it in servicefor the protection of my country if it were needed.
I would like you backing me grin
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« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2009, 11:54:21 PM »

Kathy,
I would love to have you as my next door neighbor!
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« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2009, 04:02:58 AM »

I know that this is just a bit off topic - but I agree that when you start restricting, that it is hard to set a limit as to what gets restricted.  Here in Japan - it is now illegal to carry a pocket knife with a blade of over 5cm - and it is illegal to use any object as a weapon (pipe, crowbar, etc.) in defense.  It is also illegal to have any such object "out of place" such that it is readily available as a weapon.  (Tire iron must not be under your driver's seat; fish scale-er must be in the tackle box; etc.) 

The message is - if you get murdered, let society avenge you.  Only passive defence is permitted (run, hide), or use of an object of opportunity (reached for a brick while pinned down during an attack).  This works here more or less in that there is not a very high murder/crime rate, and you have agreed to turn control over to society.

Use an object that you have planned to have access to for offence or defense, cause injury, get arrested.  Of course you might still live.

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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2009, 04:51:33 AM »

 shocked shocked Talk about needing a cop in your back pocket  shocked shocked
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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2009, 05:54:02 AM »

By jeeze, things are hotting up and I am impressed with the standard of debate. Beekeeping must be good for your mind.

Boss, your posting with such clarity. I am wondering if you are using text to speech here and this is allowing you to nail what you have to say. Whatever the reason, youre in fine form.

From my viewpoint down here and what I have learnt, I agree that self defense is the what the 2nd amendment is really about now and probably has been since 1900 or so.

With the most respect, we have some serious gun owners on here that consider the right to bear arms as natural and essential as the right to breathe free air and even they can not come up with a situation that would cause the citizens to rise up in arms against the Government. Perhaps it is just an excuse to bear arms. Perhaps there needs to be another amendment? I have a feeling in BOs second term, something will come up.

Just to be honset, I have studied american history 2 years full time, the barbed wire stuff, and many years part time. America has been built on fear and consumption. A fear of the Indians, British, the South, the Russians, Disease, Infection, Invasion, Attack, of Technology, of Risk, of anything that causes people to spend money and turn to the government for protection. Y2k, Homeland Invasion, all the money Beemaster refers to to protect against the possible not the probable. Should a team of undercover coppers or similar, perhaps 20 people in all, hang around national monuments in DC, or would they be better off on the highways?

Keep the population in fear of something and the Government has nothing to worry about. Keep people spending, trying to outdo the neighbors on the latest and greatest, the theory is they are too busy to do anything but worry about what they own and this drives the economy when spending on the military cant.

I too am staggered at the amount of money the US owes. Its just insane, it can never be paid back, so what is the long term plan? I dont see how you can continue to give billions in foreign aid and spend on Military like you do and not just print money? I tell you, Fortress America is on the Horizon.

Involvement in wars will soon be limited to Predators and other unmanned a/c flown by people sitting behind a PC in Nevada. Thats probably a good thing IMO. When the hundreds of thousands of troops come home, they will be the core of a new security force. The force that spies on its citizens and detects traitors at home not abroad. Tens of thousands will be retrained and sent o/s as good old fashioned eyes on the ground: Spies. Cost a lot less overall and thats what has to happen if you want to be able to afford the level of security your Govt wants.

Whilst all this is going on, the general population will be spending money on home security. Borders between states will be high security, police will double, fear will be generated within to stimulate the economy. Id also expect the EU to pull its weight with troops on the ground instead of the US. Time for the US to return to its state as Big Brother and leave the ground work to others.

Beemiester, you are right, There is a new age of technology knocking on the door. You will live to see laser guns. Like you say, what is available will find its way onto the street. Then the Chinese will copy it and its chaos

What concerns me is what you do, filters down here eventually. Only thing is we go through the whole process, we dont skip to the good bits.

Time will tell all. Remember, we havent missed a war with you lot since Australain Federation in 1901 and I doubt things will change, so I really do love you all and look forward to Yankie spies with fake aussie accents soon.
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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2009, 07:21:45 AM »

Mick, I am incensed at what you've supposedly learned while you studied American history.  American 'has been built on fear and consumption'?  What on earth lead you to that conclusion?  America was built on the desire for freedom.  The twisted interpretation and rewriting of history is the only way you could come to the erroneous conclusions you've made.  We do not need another amendment, the ones we have are just fine.  We need to understand history and what it teaches, not twist it into some anti-American agenda.  If people keep thinking the way you do, and there are plenty here in this country who do, unfortunately, America is truly doomed.

It has been encouraging to me to read how many people think like I do, it's the sleeping giant, and they are finally rising up and being heard.  I only hope it isn't too late.
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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2009, 09:21:57 AM »

Mick, I am incensed at what you've supposedly learned while you studied American history.  American 'has been built on fear and consumption'?  What on earth lead you to that conclusion?  America was built on the desire for freedom.  The twisted interpretation and rewriting of history is the only way you could come to the erroneous conclusions you've made.  We do not need another amendment, the ones we have are just fine.  We need to understand history and what it teaches, not twist it into some anti-American agenda.  If people keep thinking the way you do, and there are plenty here in this country who do, unfortunately, America is truly doomed.

It has been encouraging to me to read how many people think like I do, it's the sleeping giant, and they are finally rising up and being heard.  I only hope it isn't too late.


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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2009, 09:42:05 AM »

Mick, I am one of the "sleeping giants" and can see where the prior two posts are coming from, but, at the same time, I can see your point. If you look at the left, not the sleeping giant, you see exactly what you describe, and that is the way the US seems to be heading. Let's hope the giant wakes shortly.

PS. Good post on the scene as seen by an outside source. Thanks for writing it.
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