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Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 16838 times)
mick
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« on: August 19, 2009, 04:40:06 AM »

Is this true, if it is, its insane. Just insane. Its asking for trouble. I just hope enough snipers were on duty to cover all those people.

Whilst I agree with their right, an A15 is a bit over the top. I want to see video, I wanna spot the agents in the crowd.

PHOENIX – About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday

— the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

Gun-rights advocates say they're exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.

Phoenix police Detective J. Oliver, who monitored the man at the downtown protest, said police also wanted to make sure no one decided to harm him.

"Just by his presence and people seeing the rifle and people knowing the president was in town, it sparked a lot of emotions," Oliver said. "We were keeping peace on both ends."

Last week, during Obama's health care town hall in Portsmouth, N.H., a man carrying a sign reading "It is time to water the tree of liberty" stood outside with a pistol strapped to his leg.

"It's a political statement," he told The Boston Globe. "If you don't use your rights, then you lose your rights."

Police asked the man to move away from school property, but he was not arrested.

Fred Solop, a Northern Arizona University political scientist, said the incidents in New Hampshire and Arizona could signal the beginning of a disturbing trend.

"When you start to bring guns to political rallies, it does layer on another level of concern and significance," Solop said. "It actually becomes quite scary for many people. It creates a chilling effect in the ability of our society to carry on honest communication."

He said he's never heard of someone bringing an assault weapon near a presidential event. "The larger the gun, the more menacing the situation," he said.

Phoenix was Obama's last stop on a four-day tour of western states, including Montana and Colorado.

Authorities in Montana said they received no reports of anyone carrying firearms during Obama's health care town hall near Bozeman on Friday. About 1,000 people both for and against Obama converged at a protest area near the Gallatin Field Airport hangar where the event took place. One person accused of disorderly conduct was detained and released, according to the Gallatin Airport Authority.

Heather Benjamin of Denver's Mesa County sheriff's department, the lead agency during Obama's visit there, said no one was arrested.

Arizona is an "open-carry" state, which means anyone legally allowed to have a firearm can carry it in public as long as it's visible. Only someone carrying a concealed weapon is required to have a permit.

Paul Helmke, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said people should not be allowed to bring guns to events where Obama is.

"To me, this is craziness," he said. "When you bring a loaded gun, particularly a loaded assault rifle, to any political event, but particularly to one where the president is appearing, you're just making the situation dangerous for everyone."

He said people who bring guns to presidential events are distracting the Secret Service and law enforcement from protecting the president. "The more guns we see at more events like this, there's more potential for something tragic happening," he said.

Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan said armed demonstrators in open-carry states such as Arizona and New Hampshire have little impact on security plans for the president.

"In both cases, the subject was not entering our site or otherwise attempting to," Donovan said. "They were in a designated public viewing area. The main thing to know is that they would not have been allowed inside with a weapon."


I close my eyes and its like romper room, I can see....all the people I know from here that carry, even the big fella with his 3 pistolas and the lil lady who has one on her hip amongst others.

If you had a long stick on you when ole Obama comes down under, youd be blown away by our local cops before the words stop or I will shoot got to you.

I heard today that the SS block mobile phone transmission within a certain radius of the Presidential Motorcade to prevent IEDs, bombs, and plotting and scheming. Is that true?

Anyway, when BO comes down under, Im gunna say gday.

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reinbeau
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 06:33:55 AM »

It's true, Mick, and absolutely legal.  The guns aren't going to jump to life and kill anyone, and the press is playing on fears making a big deal out of it.  So what?  Really, so what?  It's a statement to this current administration to honor our rights, don't continue to chip away at them, and I have no problem with it, nor do many other gun owners in the US.  I have an AR15, it's just a gun.  rolleyes
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 08:05:52 AM »

a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


'Nuff said  evil
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2009, 08:10:51 AM »

reinbeau I have to agree with you 100%, open carry by anyone other than a cop only offends the non gun owners. For all we know the fella toting the long gun could have been a highly decorated retired Marine, things like that will never be mentioned. Also was the rifle even loaded or functional, could have even been a replica, heck it could have even been a secret service guy running some kind of training for their own purpose. Then again if it was a nut with a gun how come they did not arrest or at least detain him or dis-arm him. Lots of unanswered questions.

I do not have a problem with open carry with the exception that the cops want to harrass you. I can remember around here open carry in a back window gun rack in the pick up was the norm, never see it anymore.

At least with open carry you know who has a gun, instead of what is hidden under their jacket or waistband, know what I mean.

All of the media hype has gotten everybody scared to death to even see a gun, and have people look at you like you are a nut if you are holding one.

G3
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 08:21:16 AM »

If all the criminals were dead, or locked up it wouldn't matter how many guns were around.  Unfortunately most of the criminals are in the House, and Congress etc.   shocked  Control the criminals, not the guns. 

Guns don't kill people.  I love guns...........people, well, that is another story  grin
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 09:06:43 AM »

Mick, think seriously how important your tools are in everyday life and what it would be like if someone threatened to take away your skilsaw, car jack, ladder, automobile, or other tools. a gun is nothing but a tool. Any tool can be either used correctly or misused.

How would you like to wake one morning and see this sign in your neighbor's yard?









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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 09:47:46 AM »

They were behaving themselves


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"In both cases, the subject was not entering our site or otherwise attempting to," Donovan said. "They were in a designated public viewing area. The main thing to know is that they would not have been allowed inside with a weapon."


I also have an AR-15
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 10:08:52 AM »

Yep and I loved what he said when asked why he would do it. "because I can" lol ain't America great evil evil evil evil
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 10:58:07 AM »

It'll remain great only if we all make sure it stays that way.
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 11:25:23 AM »

a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


'Nuff said  evil

I agree

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mick
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2009, 05:36:42 AM »

Im about as pro guns as you can get. I always wanted a slug gun as a kid, but when I had turned 18 and become old enough to get a license, they banned em. When I was a kid, you would see em all the time, we would shoot them mainly at targets. I do remember a duck copping it, a nice shot if I say so myself, I remember it swimming in circles and blood flowing and some girl screaming "youve killed it, youve killed it" it just so happens on this occasion a friends dog got into a fight and had deep teeth marks on its neck. These were blamed on the slug gun until the vet confirmed dog bite not slug gun. Anyway there was hell to pay. Another time a sparrow, and another brat girl moaning and whining about it. Geeze I could go on and on abouot slug guns. Seemed everytime I touched one I got into trouble. You know back in he sensible days, school cadets was popular, you would see 14 year old kids carrying .303s. None of them ever tried to rob a bank. Trains woould leave for the country, hundreds of blokes and guns all packed in for an overnight journey. No one got shot, not one negligent discharge.

Then I learned to use real ones in 4th/19th PWLH. I respect em. However down here, theres too many idiots and we have decided the risk of such a right to be not worth the risk. Its sad in a way, but we have never had a civil war or war of independence. We are the only democracy to gain that right without a war.

You have say 500 million guns in free hands. We might have a million, probably half that in reality now as most blokes handed em in. Shooting for sport is too hard now and too dear with petrol, 4wd etc. Nothing much to shoot unless you have a lot of time or live in the scrub. Duck hunting is almost over, no water, no ducks.

So we as countries have this vast difference of opinion on guns, its cultural.

I just cant comprehend allowing anyone to be armed near the President. Trust me, if this continues, someones going to have a crack at him but perhaps thats what people want to happen. We look at rallys in Iraq and Afghanistan and 20 other countries wherre people are all armed to the teeth and we call them savages. Whats the difference?

If I lived where you do, Id be carrying a gun, concealed or open, wouldnt matter. If I was assailed upon and had no escape, I would empty the clip without batting an eyelid. If it was a kid or a female, I might pistol whip first, being the nice bloke I am, give em a sporting chance.

Where I live, the CBD is out of control like never before. The city is a square mile, all the bars and clubs are open 24/7. Theres maybe 50,000 people out of a state of 4 million in there to have a good time. At weekends with sport and concerts on, there might be 300,000 for a few hours. NYE, maybe a milion. Its not big events that are a concern, its midweek, side street, 3am that is the problem.

 Bashings almost nightly, mainly young people, in gangs attacking random people. Now all caught on security video. You have no idea what its like. The police have lost control. They lost control when we created an Ethical Standards Department, and an Independent Commission Against Corruption. That stopped coppers bashing crooks. It never failed, no matter how brutal it was. Lifts were a favorite place. I kid you not. An armed robber would not tell where the gun is, he enters 412 St Kilda Road fine, gets in the lift. Somewhere between ground and 10th floors, the lift stopped suddenly. Due to the nature of the stoppage, the crook would end up with a broken nose, ribs, jaw, arm, leg. Black eyes, ruptured spleen you name it. Strange things those lifts. As the crook was loaded into an ambulance, it seems he would have almost a death bed confession and give up the gun.

Now they dont find the guns, they get passed around from crook to crook. If the public had a right to own sidearms down here, we would be like the USA.

Its bad enough as it is, our youth have been brought up on a constant stream of violence and porn. Not just the online sites, but things like UFC, where grown idiots fight bare knuckles etc for fun, and its broadcast on TV. What next, bring back feeding Christians to the Lions? These fools have not lost touch with reality, they have never lived in reality. They dont know a computer game from reality. Give these clowns free reign at guns and id  move to the USA where at least I have a fighting chance.

Of course its not all people. Just the same types here as you have there. Go about your daily routine and youd never have a problem. Be in the wrong place at the wrong time and chances are you dont have an arguement, you get bashed and stabbed. This has gone from .00000001% chance to something like a 2 or 3 percent chance and thats the worry.

Then the Judges continue to give people a chance with lenient sentences. Murder gets you 5 or 7 years down here if you are lucky, so you can imagine that bashing someone senseless to the point of being a vegetable gets you about 3 years, 12 months suspended, 3 months off for good behaviour, call it 18 months, 6 or 12 of that served at home with an ankle bracelet. The offender is watching a movie, working, earning money, having a good time, changed his name (untracable due to "privacy laws") and moved on whilst the victim is bed ridden and will be so for the next 30 or 40 years if they have good care. Perhaps the best thing about being in that body is the few hours of sleep each night.

Yes people kill people using guns, I agree with you. Yes you might deserve to keep them if you need to rise up against the government once again. But is all the pain and suffering really worth it all? It would be interesting to know what the US population spends on guns and ammo, how many people each year get convicted for firearms offences. Then we could compare the stats to down here.

Down here this is now the drill, If yu want a guin, you have to belong to a gun club or be a licensed shooter. You have to provide 3 references, have every minute of your life scrutinised by "the system" and be interviewed by a smart copper. He then goes and interviews your friends, neighbours, relos. He visits your house a few times, maybe 6am. 1pm and 3.30am and sees what your state of mind is. You dont have to open the door if you dont want to. He sees how often you go to the local pub, shecks your credit card statements, sees if you fly interstate. Checks your phone records. If you pass, you have the right to buy a nominated particular gun. It is registered, it has to be kept in a locked non removable cabinet. The ammo must be kept in the same fashion in another part of the house. The locks must be different. You may only have one set of keys, the coppers can ask for another set of keys, you can refuse if you want to lol.

Then after all this, the cops will call around 3 or 4 times a year, or maybe only once. 3am, 4pm, 8am, who knows, might be on xmas eve. You have to let him in , if you dont, bye bye gun.

All this sees maybe 8-12 people killed by guns in a State of 4 million people a year. Is that worth it?

Anyways, guns and politicians shouldnt mix.

Why cant you have a law that says you cant have a gun within a mile of a presidential public appearance, I dont mean a drive or a meeting, just a public "here I am shoot me" occasion?

Then again, y`all have a track record in shooting presidents, perhaps thats a right you feel you need to have?

I just find the difference we have on this fascinating. Its akin to trying to understand how there is a bloke called God sitting on a cloud somewhere directing the show. I just dont get it and maybe I never will.

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2009, 07:16:59 AM »

A few of our early Presidents were quite fond of guns:

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this give moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks.  Thomas Jefferson

Fireams stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence... From the hour the pilgrims landed, to the present day events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensible... The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. George Washington.
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 09:02:42 AM »

>>>>>I just cant comprehend allowing anyone to be armed near the President. Trust me, if this continues, someones going to have a crack at him but perhaps thats what people want to happen. We look at rallys in Iraq and Afghanistan and 20 other countries wherre people are all armed to the teeth and we call them savages. Whats the difference?<<<<<


Well the difference that "I" (this is my opinion only) see is what I see on the news, these "savages" that are armed in the crowded streets are openly firing off hundreds of rounds in the air at random, try that around BO at his speech and I would say a Marine sniper would do the utimate body peircing on their head.

Owning a gun is a responsibility thing, not unlike drinking, drunk drivers kill people every day. only difference is the choice of weapon.

G3
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2009, 11:34:23 AM »



Mick, A well written response.  I think you hit on some key points.  We may differ on the answers to the problems, but I am not so sure we would.  We definitely agree that there are problems. 

Our (wanton) violence is rampant.  It is the result of a variety of factors, but I do not believe that the "ease of access" to guns is one of them.  Guns have not become more accesible here, the opposite is more the case.  Somehow, though, our society has become increasingly violent. 

How many school shootings did we have during the days of the "wild west"?  I am far from an expert on the topic, but I think during those days guns were nearly as common as boots.  Guns are available, but no where nearly as easily as then.  Even so, school shootings occur with alarming frequency.  Why?

Our nation is great.  Our government, and legislative body is not so much.  A great idea and dream have slowly deteriorated to the condition it is in today.  I hope I never need my weapons to protect against them, but better to have and not need, than to need and not have Smiley.  I am still proud to be American, and always will be. 

As to the original issue, the guns at the rally or speech, folks should have good ettiquette.  I have been a proponent for personal protection carry for....as long as I can remember.  I do think, though, that we need to use common sense.  Yes, we can carry like that, but what do we gain by doing so?  While I am a lover of that freedom, we have to be somewhat careful in the message we send.  There are times when the perception of lookers on needs to be disregarded, and the objective needs to be the only focus.  I am not sure that this situation is one that would warrant that approach.  If it is neccessary, then by all means, I will be right beside them. 

I disagree with any socialist agenda.  I am not in favor, in any way, of giving the government the kind of power they are attempting to grab.  I hope and pray that we are going to prevail.  I hope and pray that we prevail without the use of our weapons.  I am confident that we will.  I think the folks at the speeches are free to excercise their rights.  I have been involved with security for VIPs over the years.  Just from a local LE standpoint, those folks must have been pretty well behaved to skate along so swimmingly.  Otherwise, I think things would have been far different.  Yes, it looks weird, but I sure love that "we can".

The violence issue is an interesting topic.  Just as an aside, if you all have a minute, check out "Killology.com" and/or "WarriorScienceGroup.com".  Lt. Col. David Grossman is a very captivating speaker, IMO.  He has some very compelling views on violence in our society.  I agree with the majority of what he says.  You might find it/him impressive. 

It sounds a little like crime might go down if we had more "lifts" (elevators)  Maybe we need to build more lifts and fewer prisons.  I know a few years back there were some more effective approaches than jail time, when it came to reducing the repeat offenses.  LOL  AAAAaaaaaah...boy, the good old days..........I miss 'em......... and I never really gotta be part of em LOL


 
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2009, 04:13:52 PM »

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Anyways, guns and politicians shouldnt mix.

Why cant you have a law that says you cant have a gun within a mile of a presidential public appearance, I don't mean a drive or a meeting, just a public "here I am shoot me" occasion?

Then again, y`all have a track record in shooting presidents, perhaps thats a right you feel you need to have?

ah, come on, we have only had a couple of them shot in over 200 years  grin  i have been away for a few days, but i saw this before i went to the woods.  the press made a big deal about it, but these folks were no where near the prez.  they were out in a public gathering area where they would not even have had a shot at him.

i hope nothing happens to the guy.  last thing we need is a martyr!
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2009, 04:42:18 PM »

How many school shootings did we have during the days of the "wild west"?  I am far from an expert on the topic, but I think during those days guns were nearly as common as boots.  Guns are available, but no where nearly as easily as then.  Even so, school shootings occur with alarming frequency.  Why?

An armed society is a polite society..... I forgot who said that.
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 06:09:39 PM »

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ah, come on, we have only had a couple of them shot in over 200 years  grin 

Six actually.  Lincoln, James A. Garfield, William McKinley, and Kennedy were assassinated in office. President Reagan was shot and injured in a failed attempt. Teddy Roosevelt was shot after he was president - but the contents of his pocket stopped the bullet.   

In addition to the ones that were actually shot Jackson was shot at and missed, Truman was unharmed in a gun battle between assassins and his body guards (several of each were killed I think), and a woman tried to shoot Ford as he shook her hand at a rally - but the pistol misfired.  So the statement that we have a long history of trying to shoot presidents is really pretty accurate.

Fortunately the Secret service is pretty good at their job.
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 09:05:53 PM »

We are a country that has lost its way.  We no longer keep God in our hearts and minds.  We no longer respect others rights. We no longer hold personal responsibility dear.  We are nearing a chaotic judgment day and will pay for our Godless ways.  Pray and be prepared for the ruin that Obama and our government is bringing us, practice, practice, practice.  Keep your pantries full and your magazines loaded.
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2009, 05:45:54 AM »

One of the things I love about this place is that you can have a good discussion and I value your responses.

One thing that stands out is the quotes of some might men, but men from another age. Is America the same as it was then, is the national character the same?

Has politics not evolved up there to a state where you can trust your government, are you not just paranoid? 1791 was a long time ago. You havent used them against the government to prevent nuclear weapons, invasions of foreign countries, wars, social or economic policy, the loss of civil rights, the increase in taxes, the poor government services, so what then would it take to use these arms in the manner dedicated in the 2nd amendment? What would actually cause the citizens to rise up in arms and do you really think that you wouldnt end up dead at the hands of your own military on orders of the president? Can you shoot em fast enough to prevent any rational chain of command forming?

I think the constitution is really just an excuse. Ive always thought the amendment was misread to serve a purpose. depending on where you put your commas and influences. To me it meant a militia made up of the people shall have etc, not individuals. But I figure, having legally armed organised militias in neighbourhoods would be worse than unorganised individuals having guns.

6 assassinated is 6 more than down here. A now little known Australian fact is that in Arthur Calwell a former Aussie PM was shot at, to quote from WIKI to save me typing

Calwell is also notable for being only the second victim of an attempted political assassination in Australia (the first being Prince Alfred in 1868). On 21 June 1966, Calwell addressed an anti-conscription rally at Mosman Town Hall in Sydney. As he was leaving the meeting, and just as his car was about to drive off, a 19-year-old student named Peter Kocan approached the passenger side of the vehicle and fired a sawn-off rifle at Calwell at point-blank range. Fortunately for Calwell, the closed window deflected the bullet, which lodged harmlessly in his coat lapel, and he sustained only minor facial injuries from broken glass. Calwell later visited Kocan in the mental hospital (where he was confined for ten years), and through a regular correspondence encouraged his eventual rehabilitation.

I read Kocans book, now long out of print I imagine "The treatment and the cure" well worth reading if you can get it. There are famous photos of Calwells face when he was still sitting in the car covered in embedded glass fragments, forming a bit of claret. he was a lucky man. Kocan was a boy and a .22 sawn off not a good choice. Had the window been open however, our world would have changed. When former PM John Howard addressed a rally of gun owners not long after the Port Arthur massacre, he was wearing body armour under his shirt and he looked like a tool. We have had a few more tools lately visit our troops in Afghanistan in body armour, the troops werent wearing it you fools. So they just looked like tossers.

I like Switzerland, neutral country. I been there, every house has a bomb shelter, the roads have speed limit signs for tanks, the highways can be converted to runways at a moments notice. Every house has a gun. Every person of a certain age group does 2 weeks military service a year. No ones ever going to attack such a well armed and trained population. I think you should focus more on that type of system if you want to have guns.

To end on a lighter note, heres a Poem from A.B. Paterson, one of our finest.

The Bush Christening by "Banjo" Paterson

On the outer Barcoo where the churches are few,
And men of religion are scanty,
On a road never cross'd 'cept by folk that are lost,
One Michael Magee had a shanty.


Now this Mike was the dad of a ten-year-old lad,
Plump, healthy, and stoutly conditioned;
He was strong as the best, but poor Mike had no rest
For the youngster had never been christened,


And his wife used to cry, "If the darlin' should die
Saint Peter would not recognise him."
But by luck he survived till a preacher arrived,
Who agreed straightaway to baptise him.


Now the artful young rogue, while they held their collogue,
With his ear to the keyhole was listenin',
And he muttered in fright while his features turned white,
"What the divil and all is this christenin'?"


He was none of your dolts, he had seen them brand colts,
And it seemed to his small understanding,
If the man in the frock made him one of the flock,
It must mean something very like branding.


So away with a rush he set off for the bush,
While the tears in his eyelids they glistened-
"'Tis outrageous," says he, "to brand youngsters like me,
I'll be dashed if I'll stop to be christened!"


Like a young native dog he ran into a log,
And his father with language uncivil,
Never heeding the "praste" cried aloud in his haste,
"Come out and be christened, you divil!"


But he lay there as snug as a bug in a rug,
And his parents in vain might reprove him,
Till his reverence spoke (he was fond of a joke)
"I've a notion," says he, "that'll move him."


"Poke a stick up the log, give the spalpeen a prog;
Poke him aisy-don't hurt him or maim him,
'Tis not long that he'll stand, I've the water at hand,
As he rushes out this end I'll name him.


"Here he comes, and for shame! ye've forgotten the name-
Is it Patsy or Michael or Dinnis?"
Here the youngster ran out, and the priest gave a shout-
"Take your chance, anyhow, wid 'Maginnis'!"


As the howling young cub ran away to the scrub
Where he knew that pursuit would be risky,
The priest, as he fled, flung a flask at his head
That was labelled "Maginnis's Whisky!"


And Maginnis Magee has been made a J.P.,
And the one thing he hates more than sin is
To be asked by the folk who have heard of the joke,
How he came to be christened "Maginnis"!


The Bulletin, 16 December 1893.

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reinbeau
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Location: Hanson, MA and Lebanon, ME


« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2009, 06:47:41 AM »

Mick said:

Quote

Has politics not evolved up there to a state where you can trust your government, are you not just paranoid? 1791 was a long time ago. You havent used them against the government to prevent nuclear weapons, invasions of foreign countries, wars, social or economic policy, the loss of civil rights, the increase in taxes, the poor government services, so what then would it take to use these arms in the manner dedicated in the 2nd amendment? What would actually cause the citizens to rise up in arms and do you really think that you wouldnt end up dead at the hands of your own military on orders of the president? Can you shoot em fast enough to prevent any rational chain of command forming?

I think the constitution is really just an excuse. Ive always thought the amendment was misread to serve a purpose. depending on where you put your commas and influences. To me it meant a militia made up of the people shall have etc, not individuals. But I figure, having legally armed organised militias in neighbourhoods would be worse than unorganised individuals having guns.
OMG, Mick, no, politics has not evolved to the point where we can trust our government, we see examples every single day of them trying to remove our freedoms in the name of the public good - which usually means it's to keep us more under control for someone else's profit.  The Constitution isn't an excuse, it's a safeguard- and people who think as you do are the ones trying to undermine it constantly.  It was written by wise men.  Greed and power-hunger hasn't changed a bit in over 200 years, it hasn't changed a bit in over 2,000 years, it'll never change, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either naive or just ignoring the lessons of history.  I'm not trying to come down hard on you, but you've obviously believed the propoganda from the anti-gunners and globalists who are desperate to disarm the American people.  

As for gun control working in Oz, see this info from GunFacts (it's a pdf, so I'm just putting the link to the pdf, this info can be found on page 11 of the screen version:

Quote
Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime
Fact: Crime has been rising since a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics show a dramatic increase in criminal activity. [61] In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%. [62]
From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Gun murders up 19%
• Armed robbery up 69%
• Home invasions up 21%
The sad part is that in the 15 years before national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%
Fact: Gun crimes are rising throughout Australia after guns were banned. In Sydney alone, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001, more in the previous year. [63]
Fact: a ten year study that concluded Australian firearm confiscation had no effect on crime rates. [64][/i a separate study concluded Australia’s 1996 gun control laws “found [no]evidence for an impact of the laws on the pre-existing decline in firearm homicides.” [65]

61 Crime and Justice - Crimes Recorded by Police, Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2000.
62 Report #46: Homicide in Australia, 2001-2002, Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003.
63 Costa targets armed robbers, The Sydney Morning Herald, April 4, 2002.
64 Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?, Dr. Jeanine Baker and Dr. Samara McPhedran, British Journal of Criminology, November 2006.
65 Austrian firearms: data require cautious approach, S. McPhedran, S. McPhedran, and J. Baker, The British Journal of Psychiatry, 2007, 191:562
Gun control doesn't work - but it does make for more unarmed victims.  I do not want to be a victim, nor do most Americans.
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