Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
October 31, 2014, 06:49:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 17977 times)
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2009, 08:03:47 AM »

Trust our government?  Yikes!   I'll do that when I can trust my fellow man (women, race, etc), and I can hardly trust myself, so that will ever happen!  Do you trust your government?

The aggressive, controlling people rise to the top.  I don't trust aggressive, controlling people.  Ordinary laid-back people can defend themselves better with firearms. 

I think it is a bit stupid to bring a gun to a presidential visit.  But I'm glad somebody is willing to make the statement.  I noticed that the police were more concerned about protecting the people with guns than they were about protecting the people without the guns. rolleyes  I suppose they didn't want the stupid people without guns to attack the people with guns, and then somebody ends up shot.

Rick
Logged

Rick
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2009, 08:19:12 AM »

The military is of course made up of our own sons, daughters, brothers. and friends. I would have to think in a disgruntled response to something the government does, a whole lot of the military will be on the side of the people.


In the second amendment it says..... the right of the people..... Who are the people?
Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15209


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2009, 09:51:24 AM »

my one issue with Jericho.  the military should have been on the constitutional side of the government, not the control side. but....you cans see how things could go wrong.  if you open the door the the military (not national guard) operating on us soil in "emergencies", it sure would blur the lines for them if it came down to choosing sides some day.  especially if the emergency is turns out to be the folks getting rowdy!
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2009, 10:16:33 AM »

Yeah I know it is a fairy land idea. Always seems the tyrannical governments had someone to enforce their will.


Then I think of this new TV show. Women cops of Brower County (or something like that) I have only seen the commercials for it. In one of them the female cop says something about there's always a good time to use a taser. Makes me wonder if someone with that mentality should be a cop. Hate to accidentally have her stop me to give me a ticket. ZAP "Now sign this. Thank you for your cooperation." ZAP

Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
dragonfly
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 468

Location: 30 mi west of DFW, Tx


« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2009, 09:45:49 PM »

Yep and I loved what he said when asked why he would do it. "because I can" lol ain't America great evil evil evil evil

I heard that when someone asked him why he carrieds a gun, he replied "because I can't carry a cop with me."
Logged
BULLSEYE BILL
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 121


Location: The scenic Flint Hills of Kansas


WWW
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2009, 01:00:33 AM »

The powers that be know that when push comes to shove the police and the national guard will stand with the people.  Why else do you think that BO would suggest his own 'red shirt' Civilian Security Police Force?  Scary thought isn't it?  Imagine a force of loyal ACORN red shirts with the firepower equal to or greater than our police completely dedicated to enforcing the will of their supreme leader?

What will you do when the Zombies attack?
Logged
mick
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1450


Location: s/e melbourne australia (-)37.50S 145.0E


« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2009, 10:07:09 PM »

Mick said:

Quote

Has politics not evolved up there to a state where you can trust your government, are you not just paranoid? 1791 was a long time ago. You havent used them against the government to prevent nuclear weapons, invasions of foreign countries, wars, social or economic policy, the loss of civil rights, the increase in taxes, the poor government services, so what then would it take to use these arms in the manner dedicated in the 2nd amendment? What would actually cause the citizens to rise up in arms and do you really think that you wouldnt end up dead at the hands of your own military on orders of the president? Can you shoot em fast enough to prevent any rational chain of command forming?

I think the constitution is really just an excuse. Ive always thought the amendment was misread to serve a purpose. depending on where you put your commas and influences. To me it meant a militia made up of the people shall have etc, not individuals. But I figure, having legally armed organised militias in neighbourhoods would be worse than unorganised individuals having guns.
OMG, Mick, no, politics has not evolved to the point where we can trust our government, we see examples every single day of them trying to remove our freedoms in the name of the public good - which usually means it's to keep us more under control for someone else's profit.  The Constitution isn't an excuse, it's a safeguard- and people who think as you do are the ones trying to undermine it constantly.  It was written by wise men.  Greed and power-hunger hasn't changed a bit in over 200 years, it hasn't changed a bit in over 2,000 years, it'll never change, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either naive or just ignoring the lessons of history.  I'm not trying to come down hard on you, but you've obviously believed the propoganda from the anti-gunners and globalists who are desperate to disarm the American people.  

As for gun control working in Oz, see this info from GunFacts (it's a pdf, so I'm just putting the link to the pdf, this info can be found on page 11 of the screen version:

Quote
Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime
Fact: Crime has been rising since a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics show a dramatic increase in criminal activity. [61] In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%. [62]
From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Gun murders up 19%
• Armed robbery up 69%
• Home invasions up 21%
The sad part is that in the 15 years before national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%
Fact: Gun crimes are rising throughout Australia after guns were banned. In Sydney alone, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001, more in the previous year. [63]
Fact: a ten year study that concluded Australian firearm confiscation had no effect on crime rates. [64][/i a separate study concluded Australia’s 1996 gun control laws “found [no]evidence for an impact of the laws on the pre-existing decline in firearm homicides.” [65]

61 Crime and Justice - Crimes Recorded by Police, Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2000.
62 Report #46: Homicide in Australia, 2001-2002, Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003.
63 Costa targets armed robbers, The Sydney Morning Herald, April 4, 2002.
64 Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?, Dr. Jeanine Baker and Dr. Samara McPhedran, British Journal of Criminology, November 2006.
65 Austrian firearms: data require cautious approach, S. McPhedran, S. McPhedran, and J. Baker, The British Journal of Psychiatry, 2007, 191:562
Gun control doesn't work - but it does make for more unarmed victims.  I do not want to be a victim, nor do most Americans.


Nah go as hard as you like! No one can give me an example of what would cause the people to rise up and thats interesting.

Those gun stats are a bit out of date, although crimes against the person are up as I have mentioned. The homicide gun deaths were up at that time because we had a gang war over drugs. I think the total finished up at 22 killed. It was all tit for tat and fascinating to watch who would be next. Anyway they are all dead on in jail now so our gun death rate is very low.
Logged
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 6149

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2009, 10:37:34 PM »

>>>>so our gun death rate is very low.<<<<

But, is your homicide rate also low, or are they just using other ways to kill.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15209


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2009, 10:39:40 PM »

what would cause people to rise up?  depends, i guess.  we have become an apathetic country.  as long as things are good where we are, we tend to ignore bad stuff.  this government is going to far.  people who are no more politically active than to quietly vote in each election, are now attending tea parties and town halls.  they are yelling (gasp) at their representative.

the left will fuss at anything.  they march and yell and protest at the drop of a hat.  they are appalled that the usually quiet right and center are now doing the same.  they do not realize that while we may be quiet, we are many.

what does it take for us to move from protest to revolution?  i am not sure, but i think we are coming closer by the day.  it may be that all we are waiting for is the next election.  if we find the same shenanigans happening in the next, as in the last, and the results are questionable..........?

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950)

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves."  William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783


Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Bodo
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 81

Location: Crawfordville, FL


« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2009, 11:29:41 PM »


An armed society is a polite society..... I forgot who said that.

The entire quote by Robert Heinlein:

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Logged
beemaster
Site Founder
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6255


Location: Manchester, NJ

It is my pleasure to bring the forums to you.


WWW
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2009, 12:43:38 AM »

Not sure if this was mentioned, sorry for skipping around some of the posts, but very good topic Mick: Our Secret Service was created (ironically enough) by Abraham Lincoln to spot Counterfiet Money as US Currency was becoming standardised - it wasn't until after his assissination that their role in government changed dramatically.

If the president (often thought of as our greatest) Lincoln had the fore-thought of a "special security" for the President, it likely wouldn't have happened during his own administration any way, he would likely have seen it as a sign of weakness. Surely, it would have started AFTER his term, but all that is speculative and hindsite thinking.

I guess it is the same rule as "you never get a traffic light installed until at least half a dozen people have been killed at an intersection" - preventative measures are often not taken until the damage is done. That is one thing in life we humans repeat over and over, preventative maintenance or fixing known flaws aren't done as necessary, and then we complain when bridges fall down or planes fall from the sky.

It just seems to me 50 or more "armed people" walking around at a public gathering IS a well armed malitia, their INTENT is the issue to law officials, not their Rights. If enough people disagree with any administration, can't they argue it is "their right" to overthrow such a government by any means including possible riots or siege at political events?

I will never win an debate on gun Rights here - I'm not trying to, but arming all the kids in a highschool is NOT the answer to stopping a Collumbine like shooting. It sure doesn't make sense where I come from at least. Of course, New Jersey restricts so many things, it is much easier to remember what we can do than what we can't.
Logged

NJBeemaster my YOUTUBE Video Collection
Follow us on TWITTER
SKYPE NJBeemaster - include your FORUM NAME in contact request
My Personal FACEBOOK Page


"All donations to our forums are greatly appreciated"
Please click HERE to help support our forum.
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 6149

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2009, 08:49:18 AM »

>>>>arming all the kids in a highschool is NOT the answer to stopping a Collumbine like shooting.<<<<

No, but arming all the "willing" teachers and staff would certainly put a damper on it.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
Vibe
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 264


Location: Little Rock, AR.


« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2009, 09:23:28 AM »

One thing that stands out is the quotes of some might men, but men from another age. Is America the same as it was then, is the national character the same?
Unfortunately no, it's not the same. Back then the sanctity of the individual was of a much higher importance. Today everyone seems to think that "they" know more about what's best for the other guy...IE you and me. Much (if not all) of the increases in violence is a result of a rebellion to this.


Has politics not evolved up there to a state where you can trust your government,
No! If anything it has devolved to the point that you should "trust" it even less. Those in political power have no qualms anymore about "sacrificing" everything YOU own to serve THEIR purposes anymore.

and do you really think that you wouldnt end up dead at the hands of your own military on orders of the president? Can you shoot em fast enough to prevent any rational chain of command forming?
Is that question ANY different than the one George Washington and all of the (3%) people behind our revolution from England?

I think the constitution is really just an excuse. Ive always thought the amendment was misread to serve a purpose. depending on where you put your commas and influences. To me it meant a militia made up of the people shall have etc, not individuals. But I figure, having legally armed organized militias in neighborhoods would be worse than unorganized individuals having guns.
The purpose WAS so that a militia could be drawn up at any time, however the RIGHT was recognized to have existed LONG before the Constitution was written. Stems from the Natural right of self preservation and the necessary ability to defend oneself to maintain that self preservation.
Drawing up a militia from people completely untrained in the use of arms is a completely useless endeavor. Therefore "That all men be armed" was the end all purpose of the action.

The implied threat of assassination attempts was also part and parcel to the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. It was intended to maintain the focus of "politicians" upon the real best interest of their constituents. Had they done that, today's crime stats would be very different.

I like Switzerland, neutral country. I been there, every house has a bomb shelter, the roads have speed limit signs for tanks, the highways can be converted to runways at a moments notice. Every house has a gun. Every person of a certain age group does 2 weeks military service a year. No ones ever going to attack such a well armed and trained population. I think you should focus more on that type of system if you want to have guns.
Very similar to what was intended for our country "in the beginning".

Quote
arming all the kids in a highschool is NOT the answer to stopping a Collumbine like shooting.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. True, doing "out of the blue" without first addressing many of the underlying social ills that have resulted from the constant interference of double standard wielding mini tyrants would be real dicey. But had all the population been raised with the proper respect and training that comes from an armed society being the norm rather than the exception...I doubt seriously any of such events would have occurred.
Logged

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
- Marcus Aurelius -
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2009, 10:20:37 AM »

Here in Texas there was a massacre at a Luby's Restaurant. a man shot and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 . One of the surviving women left her gun locked in the car because it was "illegal" to take it inside. Now what is she had taken it inside and managed to stop him after his second shot?



WARNING: Language in these two



Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15209


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2009, 11:19:02 AM »

Quote
If enough people disagree with any administration, can't they argue it is "their right" to overthrow such a government by any means including possible riots or siege at political events?


it is not only our right, but our duty, to keep our government true to our constitution.  we have done a poor job of it so far.

Quote
and do you really think that you wouldnt end up dead at the hands of your own military on orders of the president? Can you shoot em fast enough to prevent any rational chain of command forming?

it would be my hope that our military would remember that their oath is to the constitution and not to the president.  it is pounded into us as we serve.

mick, here is the amendment.  if you read it as written, it is pretty clear.

2nd amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5471


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2009, 01:49:05 PM »

One only needs to know the King of England was able to send troops to peoples homes to search for any reason to understand why the second amendment was written.It would be much easier to seize a town without guns or knowing who all has guns than to march into the unknown.!!

 Do you think we would still be a colony of England or a free United States of America if the King had forbidden gun ownership by the colonists?
If you take a peoples right to defend themselves away,maybe they would really have to think twice about coming to another nations defense when needed.
Logged
mick
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1450


Location: s/e melbourne australia (-)37.50S 145.0E


« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2009, 05:04:39 AM »

Ah well I thought the king of England claimed where you live as his. You paid taxes to him for long enough to establish a precendent.

Well spotted Beemaster, did that group indeed constitute a Militia, the definition of what a "Militia" was removed from the Constitution when the 2nd amendment was thrown in.

KP, I read it as this:

 A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

That says to me that the people shall have the power to belong to a Militia and bear arms, not just be able to bear arms. To have arms you have to belong to the Militia, whatever that happens to be.

Now Im no expert on the US Constitution lol, but Ive always found the phrase a bit vague. To understand the exact meaning you need to see a transcript of how it has been inserted and for the life of me, seeing a digital copy of your Constitution is not easy. Perhaps it was deliberately vague given the time. Do the words "This Constitution guarantees ..... preceed the amendment? Something has to, why is it never cited. It might be "With regard to the threat of invasion or attack, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms etc.


The often quoted line is useless as it is and I guess used by both sides to their advantage.



 
Logged
woodchopper
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 347


Location: So. Maine and SE MA.


« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2009, 09:16:47 AM »

Mick said:

Quote


Nah go as hard as you like! No one can give me an example of what would cause the people to rise up and thats interesting.

Those gun stats are a bit out of date, although crimes against the person are up as I have mentioned. The homicide gun deaths were up at that time because we had a gang war over drugs. I think the total finished up at 22 killed. It was all tit for tat and fascinating to watch who would be next. Anyway they are all dead on in jail now so our gun death rate is very low.
The fact that the gangs used illegal gun proves that if gun are outlawed only criminals will have guns. The non-gun crime increases in your country are a direct result of the criminals knowing their victims are unable to defend themselves with guns. The fact that your crime rates were decreasing right before they increased with the outlawing of guns is also very telling. Every year in the USA two million crimes are prevented without firing a shot because the proposed victim was armed. One can only imagine what OUR gun deaths would be if gun control was allowed here in the US ?
 Mick, do a search on "Tea Parties" and you'll see Americans are already uprising. If our politicians ever try to outlaw guns you'll get to see what a full blown uprising looks like. Thanks to BO " The Greatest Gun Salesman Ever" there is a higher percentage of armed Americans than ever.
Logged

Every man looks at his wood pile with a kind of affection- Thoreau
Vibe
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 264


Location: Little Rock, AR.


« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2009, 09:25:16 AM »

Ah well I thought the king of England claimed where you live as his. You paid taxes to him for long enough to establish a precendent.

Well spotted Beemaster, did that group indeed constitute a Militia, the definition of what a "Militia" was removed from the Constitution when the 2nd amendment was thrown in.

KP, I read it as this:

 a well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

That says to me that the people shall have the power to belong to a Militia and bear arms, not just be able to bear arms. To have arms you have to belong to the Militia, whatever that happens to be.

Now Im no expert on the US Constitution lol, but Ive always found the phrase a bit vague. To understand the exact meaning you need to see a transcript of how it has been inserted and for the life of me, seeing a digital copy of your Constitution is not easy. Perhaps it was deliberately vague given the time. Do the words "This Constitution guarantees ..... preceed the amendment? Something has to, why is it never cited. It might be "With regard to the threat of invasion or attack, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms etc.

The often quoted line is useless as it is and I guess used by both sides to their advantage.

"The Milita" was defined as ALL able bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45 (IIRC). The ages have varied from time to time, but it was all inclusive. A good read of the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers will clear a lot of that up. But the intent was clearly stated "That All men be armed". At one time a concientious objector had to pay a tax or fee to NOT be required to own a weapon and be excluded from the "Militia" butthat was a LONG time ago.
Logged

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
- Marcus Aurelius -
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 15209


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2009, 09:39:43 AM »

you just have to read it like any other older english.  the 'because' and why come before the solution.

it's also really important to know the writings of our founders.  when you read them, you understand how they think.  if you understand how they think, you know what they meant when the wrote the constitution.

not only are we to be armed to protect our country from invaders, but also from a repressive government.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

here you go.  it's short and sweet.  constitution and 1st 10 amendments are the most important.  stuff after that is tweaking and adding.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.452 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page October 25, 2014, 09:23:48 AM
anything