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Author Topic: What the...! Only in America, guns on display at Presidential address in Phoenix  (Read 17622 times)
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« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2009, 01:22:32 PM »

Mick, why did you guys let the government take your guns?
Besides Port Arthur and the "real" Croc Dundee?
Port Arthur was their equivalent to our Columbine more or less, and the "real" Croc Dundee (that the character was modeled after) more or less went paranoid nuts about the Masons being after him and shot at a few LEOs. And was in return killed for his troubles.
There are a few other incidents mentioned here and there...but those were the gist that I've seen used to justify it.


Why did the Brits let the government take their guns?
Well...they are Poms. Nuff said.
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« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2009, 01:38:59 PM »

Mick, the US has two political parties. 

Many actually, though there are two major parties

The very liberal Democrats, and the very conservative Republicans.

Where are those conservative Republicans you speak of?  I haven't seen many of them in the last 30 years.
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« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2009, 01:46:50 PM »

there are a few of us still around.  there are a few who seem to be waking up from their long nap.  next election will tell.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2009, 01:52:26 PM »


Where are those conservative Republicans you speak of?  I haven't seen many of them in the last 30 years.

That's for darn sure. grin
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« Reply #104 on: August 31, 2009, 11:56:17 PM »

Where are those conservative Republicans you speak of?  I haven't seen many of them in the last 30 years.

Maybe that is why the liberals are in the White House...  there not being too much difference between Compassionate Republicans and Liberal Democrats. With both spending like a fire sale is about to end, maybe it didn't matter who won the election?
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

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(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
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« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2009, 09:31:40 AM »

as much as i share your feelings about "compassionate republicans" i can not picture a republican of any stripe doing what this gang is doing.

i identify less as a republican and more a conservative.  there are more people who lean conservative than liberal in this country....some just don't seem to realize it until they get a big wake up call like this government has given them.

+  plus we have the twin disasters of lack of knowledge and apathy.  they are as deadly as jets into towers.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2009, 05:21:14 AM »

Mick, why did you guys let the government take your guns? Why did the Brits let the government take their guns?

To cut to the chase, we let the government take guns away from people who didnt really need the guns in the first place, or guns of a certain type. If you need a gun for work, the farm, to belong to a club, to hunt, to shoot targets, etc you can have one if you meet the criteria. You cant have a gun here anymore just because you want one. Ther is no concept of having a firearm for self defense here. Never has been. 

The Police were the main instigators. They seem to think that being a copper and accepting the risk of being shot is no longer acceptable. OH&S says their workplace. the streets should be safe. Jesus wept, gimme a frikkin break. What clown thought this up? nah, not going to that job, doesnt sound safe. Mrs Brown is being beaten and stabbed to death by a burglar, better wait until he comes out, or better still, we know who he is, we can pick him up tomorrow, call the coroner in 20. Ah nice safe workplace, very good.

The Port Arthur massacre was one of a few mass murders committed by nut cases in the 80s and 90s. There are more non shooters here than shooters, so it was an easy decision for the government. Crims still have guns, but less of them, when they are found, they are often connected to crimes in many states. F9s are still being recovered 25 years after a whole bunch of army weapons were stolen from a reserve armory that was unguarded at night. They got the bolts too, I think they got 15 F9s and 36 SLRs, a heap of Browning 9mms etc.

So supply is limited, customs very good. Fishermen were the major source of arms smuggling here, probably still are. If you have enough money to have a Tuna boat, you grow tired of fishing, a lot more lucrative to meet a ship at sea and take posession of a few cases. Its almost impossible to smuggle a gun through an airport now. Most of whats here has been here a long time. Hand guns used to be 1500 on the black market, now more like 5 grand for a clean one. There used to be thousands of ex WW2 and Vietnam era long guns here. Bren Guns on farms, 303s in garages. People used to dump cases of them in the bay. They are still there and have been seen by divers, so have crates of grenades, but thats another story from the army disposal era. Theres known military dump sites in the bay, and isolated crim dumps, fascinating.

No one whinges about not having the gun they really want here. If you are a pro roo shooter or rabbit shooter, you will get a semi auto rifle, anything else is single shot. You can have the best Beretta shottie money can buy if you shoot targets or ducks.

All in all, we have got used to it, guns are still used for what they were intended to do by largely the right people. We dont have armed robberies all the time anymore. Its now a knife or a baseball bat etc. Maybe a gun 1 in 100 times with a gun, almost all are are caught by the security cameras. The guns used are stolen and have passed through many hands.

Id love to be able to shoot the feral birds around here, it would be a community service, just need a bb gun. Stick a scope on the sucker and be good at 100 yards. But no I cant, besides, the RSPCA would have a fit, lil betty down the road would be in tears. I cant have a slingshot, but I can have a "baitcaster" hahha but they are only good at spitting distance.

NO, you cant have a store bought slingshot here unless you pretend it is a fishing bait caster. If you make a slingshot and take to the street with it in your back pocket, the coppers will arrest you and charge you with being in possession of an offensive weapon and you will get court and a good behaviour bond, or if you are little, you might get worse, a diversion program, where you will meet shoplifters and glue sniffers and learn new skills.

As for the Poms, last time I was there they were doing fine. Plenty of gun shops, not like yours, but more like ours, nothing semi auto, but here there used to be 100 now there is 6.

Pommy coppers remain largely unarmed, 82/20 i think. The beat copper doesnt carry a gun at all. Maybe one gets shot every few years, if that. They have had strict handgun control for ages and believe it prevents most robbers tooling up to out tool the cops and it has worked well.

It must be huge cost to them preventing arms smuggling. 20 miles from europe, is close. Im sure there are a lot more arms inthe UK than we think, but for some reason, they dont use  them against cops, just each other.

Perhaps at the end of the day, the US arms industry is like Oil. Cost too many jobs and taxes to get rid of. Those companies make billions selling to civilians.

We have a growing problem with old people who think they can drive, keep going through the front of shops either forward or in reverse. What will happen when yall get too old to responsibly have a gun? Youd probably shoot your children if they tried to take it away, think they were crims instead. Worse could happen.

Will you keep your guns to the death? If you get old timers disease, how would you know if you were safe? you wonk know your own address. Youd be the type to go to a rally held by the President and fire off a few shots.



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« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2009, 07:30:57 AM »

Robbed with a baseball bat or a knife,taking away guns cured the armed robbery I see.If someone came into my home with a knife meaning me harm .,I'd rather have the advantage of distance to defend myself.I bet if they thought the homeowner was armed they wpouldn't enter with a knife or at least think twice about it.
As far as seniors with guns ,I don't think we have had a large bunch of our senior population shooting anyone here.
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« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2009, 07:56:39 AM »

Let's all move to Australia, where we'll be safe.  We won't have to worry about being shot, just beaten to death or stabbed, while all of our unarmed friends and neighbors stand around and watch.  Of course, after that happens enough times, I'm sure the government will then take away all of the bats, clubs, and knives, and any remaining rights.  Then it's just a country of serfs.  Yep, I can see no valid reason why the people should be able to defend themselves against aggression, theft, or violence, either by others, or their government.  After all, one of the first things Adolf Hitler did as the newly elected Chancellor of Germany was to enact national gun control, and we all know how well that work out...

No thank you.  I'll keep my rights, defend them to the end, and live free.  'Tis better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.
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« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2009, 08:51:24 AM »

Frankly I think this discussion is going nowhere, Mick has been brainwashed into believing an unarmed people is a safe people, and we all know that's not true, so we're just  beat a dead horse beat a dead horse beat a dead horse

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« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2009, 08:57:32 AM »


To cut to the chase, we let the government take guns away from people who didnt really need the guns in the first place, or guns of a certain type. If you need a gun for work, the farm, to belong to a club, to hunt, to shoot targets, etc you can have one if you meet the criteria. You cant have a gun here anymore just because you want one. Ther is no concept of having a firearm for self defense here. Never has been.


I'm breaking my silence on this one  evil

Mick,

I certainly hope that nobody spoils your Utopian World for the rest of your natural life, there is a saying that I'd like to share with you and others that I preach:  It is better TO HAVE and NOT NEED than it is to NEED and NOT HAVE !
This saying applies to all the tools in life whether it is Knowledge, Skills, Wisdom and FIREARMS !

Have a SAFE Day and that goes for all on this Forum.  grin

BH

 

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mick
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« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2009, 04:30:45 AM »

Well knives are technically illegal too. You can have a meat cleaver or a swibo carving knife at home no worries. Take them onto the street and you get locked up. The only people allowed to have a knife on the street are fishermen and tradesmen. We banned all those butterfly knives and those PC game huge sword things as well.

We dont have a lot of break ins anymore. Since Heroin became passe, and all the addicts died, not many people live off break ins anymore. Home invasions are unheard of here. No one breaks into a house with people home here. When Heroin was all the rage, if you lived near a train station, you wouldnt be in the front yard with the back door open.

Id say over 40% of people have a dog here. I think 6o or 70% of homes have a dog, cat, bird etc. We have one of the worlds highest pet ownership rates in the world.
A dog is the best deterrent known to man.

Its a shame some of you are not capable of anything more than taking one of my generalizations, that I made clear was a generalization as best I could for the thick of skull, then using that to base your arguments on.

KP the Jap tourists are the worst here. They think every country is the same size as Japan. They see a map of Australia and think its made to the scale of the Japan Islands. They take off across the Deserts and are never heard of again. They drown a lot. Not good swimmers the Japs. The Poms are a close second, they are always getting lost. No bush in the UK. In the entire UK there is only one forest of a few acres that can be said to be more than a couple of hundred years old. Put up a bush and they get lost. They also drown a lot. Its because of their natural fear of bathing and all things water.

The Vietnamese hold the record for being washed off rocks. I tell ya once Charlie has got hold of a fish, he doesnt let go for anything. They sink like a stone too!

Tourists drown here in water less deep than they are tall. They panic, do everything but stand up. Cracks me up. My generation was taught to swim at school. You learnt or you drowned. Everyone got the hang of it I am glad to report. It was taught at school. You got your safety swimmer certificate aged about 7 I reckon, meant you could float and swim 25 yards. Then your herald certificate. I think that was 100 yards a couple of types of strokes, holding your breath underwater, a few other tricks, that was about aged 10 average, but you could go for it if you had the first one at any age. Be at the pool all day, diving for coins, off the 10 metre diving board, underwater races, we were all like fish. Then it was off to the surf club to be taught how to swim in the ocean, body surf, how to swim out of a rip, or you just got a mate to teach you. You leant to read a beach, spot the rips, we could all swim better than we could walk. I guess we might take for granted the local conditions here. 90% of the population lives within an hours drive of the coast. If you dont have nice weather and nice beaches, learning to swim might not be an easy option.

It gives you a great love of the water, a great respect, but no fear. Sad to say the current generation of mums and dads is sheltering their children. Instead of playing outside, they are online playing violent PC games and living in a fantasy world. Pretty sad really. They remove slides and swings from playgrounds now, no maypoles. What a crack up they were, 20 feet of one inch rusty chain chain, times 6 with a 6 inch ring of steel on the end. The whole lot must have been 50 pounds a length. Spinning out of control at about 60k, that ole ring used to take out quite a few teeth, smack a few skulls. Perhaps it was best to remove them. Did you know, we not only banned guns, but banned climbing trees at school?

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beecanbee
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« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2009, 04:52:03 AM »

Mick I am astonished by your ability to generalize.  Musta learned that in school and got one of them thar certificates in it too.  Smiley

For the folk who think that Mick is 100% wrong on the US, and for those who might want a view of America as it has been seen from other countries across the years, may I recommend two books:

Lies My Teacher Told Me – by James Loewen
A People's History of the United States – by Howard Zinn
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
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« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2009, 10:46:04 AM »

i have never met anyone who is 100% wrong about something.  even a lie has a bit of truth in it...if it's going to be a good one.

i used to have this debate with my European kin until i realize that the difference is in one word:  EXPECTATION
the people of england sat on their roof and said "how could the government let this happen", while the flood swirled below.  they didn't evacuate because they expected someone to make the problem go away.  the people of New Orleans did the same and so did the people of NJ.  

in IA, the people went out and sand bagged their own town and saved it.  the people of SD went out and rescued folks off the roads and took them into their homes until the blizzard passed.  the people of MS dug themselves out of the wreckage and worked as teams to make sure everyone was taken care of.

in many countries there is a reliance on government to take care of everything.  security, health care, food, rescues....all in the hands of their government, and put there willingly by the people.  they have always had centralized government that ruled and "cared for" the people.  same in those areas of the US where the government is the main source of food and housing.  

in this country we have a simple decision to make.  do we want to sit on our roof, or do we want to sandbag our town?

guns are not the issue.  the subject of gun control is just a side conversation on the way to deciding government control.  if they care for you, they own you.  if they disarm you, that ownership is made much easier.  

« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 11:19:11 AM by kathyp » Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2009, 11:16:56 AM »

Kathy, that sums it up about as truthfully and completely as I've ever seen it.
THANK YOU
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« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2009, 11:26:43 AM »

Kathy, that sums it up about as truthfully and completely as I've ever seen it.
THANK YOU


Yup!
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« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2009, 12:39:39 PM »

Well spoken, Kathy!  Here in my neighborhood, we still take care of ourselves, and our neighbors.  We don't rely on Big Brother to hand us everything and take care of us.
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« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2009, 05:41:49 PM »

good post Kathy.  But just to niggle a bit on the edges....  In many places US citizens allow government to provide policing, libraries, roads, water, etc.  So to what degree, and just how far into on`s life do we allow the government to encroach seems key to the issue.  We all have our tolerance level, and that is where the debate occurs.

On gun control - I don`t want to live under the threat of tanks that my neighbors kids may operate - for me no issue with their hand guns though.  But assault weapons are a stretch for me.
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Paul

“I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. Smiley

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson
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« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »

i'm not an anarchist.  the federal government has a place.  it would be impractical for each state to sign treaties.  there is a place for some interstate regulation of those things that cross states lines.  power is a good example.  having each state declare war, or not, would be impractical. there is even a small role for the feds in banking.   if the federal government stuck to it's constitutional mandates, it would be very small.

i have a problem with top heavy national government.  we were designed to function as fairly sovereign states.  the federal government has no place in education, welfare, medical care, emergency care...except in those cases where the country is in danger.  it should not be running car companies, dictating salaries, regulating firearms, liquor, or tobacco.  almost every bureaucracy the federal government funds, is unconstitutional.  almost every one has had it's start as a gross expansion of the interstate commerce clause. 

under which clause does congress waste our money investigating steroid use in baseball? 

the more government does, the less individuals do.  the more government does, the more people expect it to do.  pretty soon you have a lot of folks with their hand out, and not many people actually producing.  that can't lead to a good end.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2009, 04:41:40 AM »

You gave up your individuality when you united to form The United States. I cant help but wonder what America would be like if it was a land mass with 49 countries. The Americas would have rivaled Europe for diversity in culture. I wonder if you would have lived together peacefully, or would wars and economics have led to north south east west coalitions?

We have 22 million people and 3 levels of Government in each of the 7 states and two territories. Over Governed to buggery we are. Want to do something? well talk to the federal, state, local government, get referred to a dozen agencies, water, land, building, planning, electricity, environment, heritage, culture, etc and local groups, add a few of them. Then add a few levels of courts you can go to or be taken to and VCAT, then you might get a decision on something. The entire country is making up each others pay.

If the State employs enough people directly or indirectly, no one wants change, too frightened of losing your job. Better the Devil you know than the one you dont know. Its really a joke, all these people with artificial jobs just adding to the taxation we already have.

We wanted to make a DVD at work, would have cost the time it took to make. Say 4 people, 10 hours in all, call it 500 or a grand. Instead we had to get the marketing and Communication department involved. They spent 30 grand umming and arring, then got an external agency to make it. They charged 50 grand!!!! so we are up to 80 grand after 4 months, every change has to go through ten people, there is no end in sight. It will end up costing well over 100 grand. remember we could have made it in a week for 1% of that.

Guess what, its a 5 minute DVD of basically water pipes, with a voice over!

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