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Author Topic: Question about Apiguard and feeding...  (Read 3795 times)
rick42_98
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« on: August 11, 2009, 07:55:03 PM »

OK...I am a 1st year beek.  I started my hive this year (May 1st) from a 4 frame nuc.  They got off to a slow start because of all the rain this year and I have been feeding them sugar syrup all the way through.  I am going to do the 2 treatments (2 weeks each tin) of Apiguard for the mites.  Here is my question:  When I set them up with the Apiguard and the shim, I put the Apiguard on top of the frames, then I put the shim, then the inner cover, can I place the sugar syrup (bucket feeder) on top of the inner cover as I have been doing all along?  Or should I not feed when treating with the Apiguard?  The nectar flow has stopped for the season and I would rather the girls not consume their stores.  Any advice here would be very much appreciated...Thanks   huh
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 09:25:32 PM »

you can feed, but do you need to treat?  what is your mite count like?  often a 1st year hive doesn't need it, and if you are lucky, you have bees that have kept the mites down and you won't need to treat.

i am never against treating if they  need it, but it's a waste if they don't.   Smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
indypartridge
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 06:16:20 AM »

Ditto on everything Kathy said!
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Cossack
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 08:13:50 AM »

Are you sure about the nectar flow being over?HuhHuh

I am just below you in Maryland and we have a second flow with late soybeans and Golden Rod. This is just about to start in a another few weeks.

Good Luck.
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BeeHopper
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 08:17:55 AM »

rick42_98,

Cossack is right, another flow on the way, but if your bees are in the area of heavy urbanization, you might not get one, goldenrod is not a plant you'll find in manicured lawns and weed-free gardens, if I can remember correctly, Wyckoff is crammed with homes, is it not  huh
With the info you have given us, I believe your bees have gotten off on a bad start, feeding them all along will only weaken them more and the treatment may not help.  Sad
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:36:36 AM by BeeHopper » Logged
rick42_98
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 02:55:16 PM »

Thanks for all your answers but I do not understand how my feeding them all the way through will make them weaker.  I started with foundation and not drawn comb so they needed lots of energy to draw all the comb.  That is one reason why I did feed them.  As far as the Apiguard, my mentors, at NJ Beekeepers (Northeast branch), all suggested that I treat.  They said that my hive would not last more than 2 years without treatment.  I do think that I should treat with the Apiguard as it is not a "hard" chemical and the life cycle of the mite will peak when the egg laying drops off.  I want and need lots of bees to overwinter successfully.  I have seen some of the bees coming back with pollen but most of the beeks around here have harvested their honey already so I assume the major nectar has stopped.  In May and June the bees were not taking the sugar syrup but they sure are now.  Anyway, thanks for all the advice and please let me know your thoughts.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 10:11:31 PM »

no harm in feeding. 

apiguard is soft(er).  it will have an impact on your hive, but compared to most treatments, it will be minimal.  if you feel your mite count justifies treating, then do so. 

we all have different goals in beekeeping.  i like bees and honey, but i'm trying to raise resistant bees.  it's all about where you think you are going.  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
indypartridge
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2009, 06:59:56 AM »

They said that my hive would not last more than 2 years without treatment.
I won't disagree with that statement, but it's been my experience, as Kathy stated initially, that first year hives often don't need treatment. It's usually not until the 2nd year that I see a mite load that requires treatment.

That said, I also realize there are significant regional differences, and what I see as "usual" in Indiana may be completely irrelevant to your situation in New Jersey. Regardless, I encourage you to do mite counts before/after treatments, otherwise there is no way for you to know whether the treatments are working or not.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 07:33:43 AM »

That old "dead within two years" comment is usually made by beekeepers who have drawn a hard line in the sand and they have two options in their own mind. 1) Treat, normally with strips or harsh chems at least a couple times a year. (and still lose 80%   Wink  ) or....  2) Do absolutely nothing and sit back and watch them die after a couple years, and then run around saying that you need to treat or you will lose them.

They normally do not consider the gray matter in the middle.

Last night I spoke at a club. I mentioned my "treatment" is a yearlong process. It's not about treating with chems or letting them die. It's about a three pronged approach. (genetics, equipment options, and management strategies)

My "treatment" involves taking advantage of the benefits of young queens, using equipment options such as SBB and comb strategies, and doing summer splits and requeening at times when brood breaks are most advantageous in keeping mites low, getting off the crappy package cycle, and using the best genetics. It's an overall approach. One that many have found to work very well. One that makes comments about "treat or they will die" from the traditional sense of putting in harsh chemicals about obsolete as the beekeepers making the statements.

Next time someone hears that statement "Treat them or they will die!" follow it up by asking "What other options and techniques are you using to combat mites and other problems inside the hive?" You will find out how ignorant they may actually be. And perhaps you will come to the conclusion that this is the last person you might take advice from.... Wink
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tandemrx
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 10:09:53 AM »

I will only add that it may depend on the source of the nuc.

I started a nuc last year and as a "first year hive" it was loaded with mites (approx. 200 mite/24 count, larvae covered with mites) and it has taken another year for me to get this hive healthy with a lowered mite count.  Source beekeeper (commercial type operator) had a regular management program, but uses only low concentration formic acid for mites as another "light" treatment.

So the "healthy new hive" idiom may not always be correct either.  No absolutes in any direction of course.

And I will also add that I did feed in the spring while I had apiguard on.  No problems that I can think of.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 06:16:23 PM »

the other thing is that a "wild" swarm, may not be.  some of my swarms have come from pollination hives in the area.  i can tell by the time of year, area, and/or the look of the bees (no kidding).  these hives have been treated and may  not be resistant stock.  they need to be watched closely to see if they can make it on their own.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2009, 10:35:32 AM »

Regardless...treating or not treating for mites....

DON'T FEEL ANY REGRET OR INSECURITY IF YOU TREAT FOR MITES!!!!

You've invested a significant amount of money and time into your hive.  It won't hurt to medicate with Apiguard, and you can feed while treating.

Go with what works for you, and if and when you feel comfortable not medicating, then don't medicate.  But in the meantime do what you need to, even if it is only for peace of mind.

I use Apiguard, and while I don't feed them, they do bring in plenty of honey(winter stores) when the Apiguard is on the hive.

Rick
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Rick
rick42_98
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2009, 09:50:56 AM »

I want to thank you all for your valuable input.  This forum is so great, especially for new beeks like myself, who are sometimes lost in the woods.  I decided to put an Apiguard tin on top of the frames and will leave it there for two weeks.  I will likely follow that with a second tin for another 2 weeks as per the instructions.  I am continuing to feed and the latest change I made was to add Honey-B-Healthty to the 1:1 syrup.  I do still see the girls bringing in pollen loads so something is still happening "out there".  Sometime in September I will likely put a formic acid pad in just to complete the mite treatment for the year and keep fingers crossed for the winter.  I will let you all know if we overwinter successfully and thanks again to all of you helpful folks.
Rick
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2009, 09:53:28 AM »

what is your thinking on using formic acid after apiguard?  that will be very hard on your bees and will accomplish ?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Scadsobees
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 03:53:24 PM »

I agree with Kathy...it is a good idea to do one this year, and the other next year, but don't do both in one year.
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Rick
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