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Author Topic: Northeast Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference - Day 1 Photo  (Read 4855 times)
Robo
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« on: July 31, 2009, 10:37:40 PM »

Getting late, but promised I would post this picture tonight.  Natalie has more (and better) pictures to post.



Left to right:  Rick (gaucho10), Rob, Natalie, Mike Bush, Tim (tshnc01), Adam (fermentedhiker)

Bob(BeeHopper) and a few others from the forum are also here.  It has been pretty jammed packed, so we haven't all been able to get together at once

I'll try to take more pictures tomorrow...
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 11:43:50 PM »

No!!! I am not holding hands with Robo!!!
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 11:49:53 PM »

I am so jealous - I wanted so badly to go, but economics being what they are the best I could do this year was a staycation....maybe things will be economically better next year.

Linda T
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 11:53:18 PM »

looks like it was the place to be...what with all that hand holding and stuff.......... rainbow sunflower
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 06:06:19 AM »

No!!! I am not holding hands with Robo!!!


Though he his a lot cuter without his spelunker hat on Wink

On a more serious note, I have already learned a lot and we haven't even gotten to the presentations I was looking forward to before the conference.

Romona gave an excellent presentation on microbes and Ihighly recommend every thake a look at the paper they have published on their website -> http://www.beeuntoothers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf

Also learned that a Swedish? scientist has just discovered that feeding sugar kills at least 2 of the microbes living in the bee gut.

Also enjoyed a great talk by Erik Osterlund how he worked with Brother Adam to develop his Elgon bees and hist venture into the mountains of Africa to get breeding stock.


Looking forward the Dee Lusby, Mike Bush, Michael Palmer, and Erik Osterlund's talk today and hopefully the weather will allow us to get out into the bee yard.

It has been a great time so far....
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 10:34:32 PM by Robo » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 03:34:19 PM »

See you had good weather today and hope and you had a good time. tongue



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley 
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2009, 10:43:35 PM »

2 photos from today.

The venue....


Tim and Dee Lusby  (Karaoke duet?)
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 01:02:57 AM »

Here are a few more pics:



In an attempt to take a picture of myself I (gaucho10) improperly aimed the camera and instead got a pic of Robo (front left), fermentedhiker (front right) and Natalie (center back), all tentatively listening on.  I did manage to take a picture of my right ear lobe.



Here we have Sam Comfort demonstrating his top-bar hive.



Tim, Rob and Adam are discussing today's topic during a break.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 07:03:16 AM »

Running back to the conference now myself, gaucho I saw you take that picture and thought you held the camera backwards by accident because I saw Adam and Rob cracking up afterwards. Smiley
Its been a great time so far. I will get my pictures up as soon as possible, at least by tonights.
I have been so tired when I get home and then I drive back in the morning and am rushing around.
There has been so much information here its incredible.
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 07:12:53 AM »

Its been a great time so far. I will get my pictures up as soon as possible, at least by tonights.
I have been so tired when I get home and then I drive back in the morning and am rushing around.

We don't want to hear the whining, just post the picture.


Did I just say that. shocked
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 07:53:51 AM »

Posted by Natalie---"Running back to the conference now myself, gaucho I saw you take that picture and thought you held the camera backwards by accident because I saw Adam and Rob cracking up afterwards."

That was all planned Natalie.  It really was!!!  It was...It was!!! Honestly!!!
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 08:19:18 AM »

Running back to the conference now myself, gaucho I saw you take that picture and thought you held the camera backwards by accident because I saw Adam and Rob cracking up afterwards. Smiley
Its been a great time so far. I will get my pictures up as soon as possible, at least by tonights.
I have been so tired when I get home and then I drive back in the morning and am rushing around.
There has been so much information here its incredible.

              Natalie...


   Do you want some cheese for you'r wine ??


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 11:25:59 PM »

Oh you guys are so funny, not everyone got to sleep at the super 8 motel ya know robo grin
I heard the beds are wicked comfortable evil
Jim, I would love some cheese, some that is fattening and really bad for you,maybe even served atop nachos.]
 Dean and ramona made it a point that we would be served only fresh healthy food and I don't know how much more I could have taken grin it was all great though and I actually liked the food alot.
I snuck in a diet coke one day and this lady offered to buy it off of me, I gave her one and she thanked me every time she saw me, it was so funny. 

By the way I can confirm that Robo was indeed trying to hold hands with Rich.
Hey Rob good picture of Tim and Dee Lusby doing their rendition of Love Shack, it was fabulous you all should have seen it. Thanks again Tim.

Who knew Adam aka fermented hiker was such a wild and crazy guy, we were reigning him in all weekend.

As some of you know we had a thread about this conference and beemaster members were planning to meet up at the beginning of the first day of the conference.
Robo, Gaucho, Fermented Hiker,tschnc01 and myself found eachother before the start of the conference and talked about how we were missing two members, one of them being beehopper and the other John from new hampshire.
At the end of the day which was around 10:00 pm at night some of us starting chatting while we were still in our seats and we discovered that the man behind me was beehopper (bob).
He had been there the whole time and we did not realize it, even when I had been leaning back and talking to the two people he had traveled to the conference with.
He is actually the one who figured it out and spoke up and he was directly behind me.
Several times during the day we asked eachother if anyone had seen beehopper yet, everyone was like no, no idea.
We never did find John from New hampshire so if you were there John I am sorry we missed you.

Gaucho invited us back to his house after the conference and although the other members had some planes to catch or long rides ahead of them Robo, myself and my husband went over for a visit.
His house, pond and yard is incredible and very well thought out and it was really nice of him to invite us over for a tour.
We got to check out his beehives and he has some good tempered girls.

I really have to say that I am so thrilled with this weekend. The people I met were just so sweet and down to earth and I will miss them, I hope to see all of them again soon.
The information the presenters shared with us is immeasurable in attaining our treatment free goals or less treament goals depending where everyone is at.
I think everyone got something different out of this conference that they will implement in their hives.
All of the presenters were very knowledgeable and approachable, at least no one ran away when I approached them, although I think Michael Bush tried to once or twice I am not sure.
I have so many notes to organize but I was impressed wtih all of it, the microbes in the hive is especially interesting to me and I am going to study more on that.
Dean, Ramona and their families really worked their tails off and are already planning next year's conference and I would recommend it to anyone.

I am posting a link to my existing photo bucket album of the conference pictures, there are too many to post directly in the thread.


http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/vv153/natalierosepeterson/?start=all
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 12:35:54 AM »

Oh--I'm turning green with envy!! Maybe I can get over it if you all pass on the wealth of information you have received! Pretty please?
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 12:46:16 AM »

Envious huh? You should see what I was dealing with this weekend

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv153/natalierosepeterson/Picture048.jpg
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2009, 04:27:24 PM »

Hi  Natalie, Robo and the gang.....

Unfortunately, I was on a ship for sea trials (Radio/Electronics Officer)and should have been back Saturday morning early but glitches kept us out a few extra days. I PM'd deknow from the ship to give my reservation to a child or someone interested in bees. I hope that worked out and hope to see everyone next year. I was looking forward to MP's overwintering his hives......maybe a road trip to St. Albans is in order!!

Glad there was a good time had by all...

Brgds,
John
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2009, 04:51:19 PM »

Quote
Envious huh? You should see what I was dealing with this weekend

that's hilarious.  not what i'd expect to see with 3 boys and an electric fence, but this is a family site..... evil
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2009, 05:06:55 PM »

Hi Everybody,

It was nice to meet and chat with Natalie & Bill, Rob and Adam and I find it funny that I was sitting behind all of you and not knowing for a full day, with so many folks there, it's was difficult for me to just open up and introduce myself. It was also nice to finally meet Dee Lusby and Michael Bush too  grin ( Both Dee and Mike are heroes in my bee world )
   I came up with 3 others from my club and we're were just impressed with the way Dean and Ramona handled the Conference, I will certainly be back next year. I am the kind of person who is active and just to sit through the lectures was grueling, and I know it was the same for Natalie and Bill who like myself have back problems, maybe next year we ought to do some shots of whiskey before the lectures to lessen the pain  Wink

On Friday morning at the motel, my friends and I have had the pleasure of meeting Dee Lusby and sitting down and chatting with her for over an hour before Dean showed up for her ride. She is a very intriguing woman and we've learned a great deal from her and it was not just about beekeeping, so at any time you beeks on this board ever run into her, open your ears and minds WIDE open  grin

And lastly, the photo with you guys getting your jollies on the bear fence is a classic ( Thanks Natalie )



Bob
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2009, 05:08:30 PM »

Hi  Natalie, Robo and the gang.....

Unfortunately, I was on a ship for sea trials (Radio/Electronics Officer)and should have been back Saturday morning early but glitches kept us out a few extra days. I PM'd deknow from the ship to give my reservation to a child or someone interested in bees. I hope that worked out and hope to see everyone next year. I was looking forward to MP's overwintering his hives......maybe a road trip to St. Albans is in order!!

Glad there was a good time had by all...

Brgds,
John

John,

So sorry you could not make it, maybe next year. This conference was worth the trip  grin
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2009, 05:33:17 PM »

Awesome, looked like lots-o-fun....I have been wanting to make one of these since the Nabraska one. Maybe someday..... Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2009, 07:42:42 PM »

Running back to the conference now myself, gaucho I saw you take that picture and thought you held the camera backwards by accident because I saw Adam and Rob cracking up afterwards. Smiley
Its been a great time so far. I will get my pictures up as soon as possible, at least by tonights.
I have been so tired when I get home and then I drive back in the morning and am rushing around.
There has been so much information here its incredible.

 

             Natalie...


   Do you want some cheese for you'r wine ??


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley

    Natalie...

  Thax for all the good pic you did a good job  Wink


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley
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 John F. Kennedy
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2009, 07:44:16 PM »

>>>>not what i'd expect to see with 3 boys and an electric fence, but this is a family site...<<<<

Kathy, these city folk don't know about the electric fence "initiation" ritual the country boys always introduce the city boys to.   shocked   shocked   evil
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2009, 07:45:58 PM »

Glad everyone enjoyed. Maybe they will have a get together around here in the next year or two.....I HOPE!....
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2009, 09:19:11 PM »

This conference really was a blast, you all should try to make the next one.
People came from all over but I do understand how tough it can be to get away, I was lucky this one was so close to me.

John I am sorry that you couldn't make it but there will be another one next year so hopefully you can join us.

I forgot to mention that we also met Bob N and his wife from new hampshire at the conference, he is a member here as well and I am glad that we met up.
They were both really nice.

Jim 134, I hope you can make the next one as well but I will expect to at least see you at the next Mass Beek meeting in october.

I liked that this conference wasn't too large. I don't know how many people came but I know that Dean was only accepting 150 people max so it wasn't more than that.
Dean and Ramona announced that they were asked to write a book and they accepted so they will be working on that and I think they expected to finish it by May.

Michael Bush, it was so great to meet you, I really enjoyed your presentations and your company.
I am glad we met.

Beehopper I am glad that we found you even if it was later in the day, I really liked your friends as well.
They were all great people and I exchanged information with Pat before she left.
Dee Lusby is quite the character and you were lucky to get such face time with her.
I ended up talking gardening with Michael Palmer at one point which I really enjoyed. He turned out to be a very friendly guy as well.

All of the presenters were really great about socializing with everyone and clarifying information from their presentations or just shooting the breeze.
Michael Bush sat next to me during some of the talks and helped dumb things down for me when needed.
He is an all around nice guy, funny and down to earth.

On the last day of the conference everyone was out in front of the venue with their notebooks exchanging contact information with eachother, I think everyone made new friends this weekend.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2009, 10:24:40 PM »

I guess that this is a good time for me to mention that I did enjoy meeting and speaking with a lot of the people at the conference.

First of all I would like to mention that I am really glad and honored that I had a chance to meet Michael Bush in person.

I also enjoyed listening and speaking with Erik Osterlund from Sweden in person.  His knowledge and experience involving his trip to Africa in an attempt to obtain his strain of bees (queens) was really interesting.  Also, just talking to him about "techniques" in general on the other side of this planet was very educational.

I did not personally speak with Dee Lusby but she appeared to be a really interesting and "down to earth" person.  I enjoyed both of her lectures.

One other person who I was fascinated with was Michael Palmer from Vermont.  His presentation was entitled "Overwintering Nucs and Beekeeping in New England".  The thing that fascinated me about his talk was his method of doing "splits".  Not "two" nucs out of one hive but "four" out of one weak colony!  Another thing I admired about this gentlemen was his various knowledge on the subjects that he managed to throw in during other topics being discussed by other speakers.

The information I gained from Sam Comfort's talk on "top bar hive" beekeeping was fascinating and somewhat unbelievable.  I have to say that if I was to really get into top bar hives I would probably spend a few more bucks ($) and do it "a little bit more fancy" than Sam.  He claims that he has built some of his hives for around $5.00 in material.  I could see that the hive he had "for show" did look like it was built out of "scrap" lumber.  Being a "gentlemen" beekeeper as I am, I would probably spend a couple of hundred bux ($) and have something more "elegant" to display in my back yard.

Last but not least Dean and Ramona's lecture was also interesting.  As previously stated, Ramona gave a speech on microbes and the honeybee.  Dean's final talk was about photography and turned out to be very interesting.  I am glad that he did not get too technical and managed to pass the point without getting us all confused.  I am definitely going to go out with my Canon camera and experiment a littlebit more now.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2009, 10:40:17 PM »

Oh, yeah...I almost forgot...Dean (deknow) will probably post something but just to get you all started, here are a few sites that pertain to what the conference was all about.

http://www.beeuntoothers.com/
http://www.elgon.se/index-eng.htm
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshas.htm

I hope I did this right?HuhHuh
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 11:51:26 PM »

I thought I'd take a moment to chime in as well.  I certainly had an awesome time.  It was great to meet and get to know everyone better. 

Natalie; great job with the pics, although it reminds me why I try to stay behind the camera most of the time Smiley  Reigning ME in eh, truth be told...................

Gaucho10 sorry I didn't have time to stop by and check out your beeyard.  Those lectures that lasted past 10PM were killers and I really needed to get on the road before I fell asleep.  Maybe next year.

Michael, it was nice to meet you in person.  I really enjoyed your presentations and just chatting as well.

About the conference;
Mike Palmers presentation on overwintering nucs was fascinating to say the least.  I'll be mulling over how I take what I learned from his presentation and Sam Comforts discussion about his topbar operation and implement the best practices for my own future plans.  Dee Lusby's presentations where interesting for sure, although I will say you better be well rested and able to concentrate if you want to keep track of everything she's talking about Smiley  She definitely packs a lot of info on several subjects(just doesn't always connect the dots for you).  Ramona's presentation on Microbes in the hive was absolutely fascinating and by itself was enough to justify making the attempt to keep bees the way I instinctively thought I should be doing it.

I know I'm leaving out a lot and I really should have taken better notes, but I guess that's all the excuse I need to go again next year Smiley 
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2009, 02:41:24 PM »

It was a pleasure to meet so many wonderful Beemaster folks this past weekend.  I have to confess that going into the conference I was a bit worried that there was going to be too much information, and my brain would simply go to mush.  While it certainly was a lot of information, leaving each night after 10pm, the presentations were fantastic and kept me on the edge of my seat.  Michael Palmer's session on overwintering nucs blew me away...

Gaucho10, sorry I couldn't swing by your place on the way out.  I was trying to catch an early flight, but it turned out everything was delayed.

...Tim
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« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2009, 02:43:59 PM »

There's allways a "next time" Tim.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2009, 02:49:58 PM »

Michael Palmer's session on overwintering nucs blew me away...


Yes,  his presentation was the one I was looking forward to the most,  and he did not disappoint!
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deknow
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2009, 07:51:00 PM »

We took Erik Osterlund and Michael Bush up to Vermont to visit Kirk Webster and Michael Palmer after the conference.  Photos here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ramona/ConferenceAndAfter
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fermentedhiker
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2009, 08:47:03 PM »

Thanks for sharing the pics Dean.  Looks like you guys had a wonderful time.  And thanks again for all the work you put in to make this happen.
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2009, 04:13:22 PM »

Now that it's been a week since the Conference, I am pondering how to begin applying my new found knowledge, do I stop the treatments altogether ( Apiguard and sugar dusting )and let the colonies be ? Do I start culling the old combs and begin installing small cell foundation or put in a few foundationless frames or wait till spring ? Do I leave more honey with them for the winter and not feed ? Decisions, decisions  Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2009, 05:07:03 PM »

BeeHoper,  Last year I was doing sugar feeding in the spring, ans sugar dusting sometime in the summer.  This is the first time I was going to go with "no chemicals.  Then I found out that sugar feeding and sugar dusting is considered a nono if you want to go to all "natural".  So during late Summer, fall, winter and all of this year I did no sugar feeding, no sugar dusting, no chemicals/meds. and I started foundationless.  Got to go slow on the foundationless.  A little at a time until you faze out your foundation frames.  That might take me into next season. 

Then I went to the conference.  Now I really want to keep going with the foundationless.  I allways feed honey for the winter (my reserves for them).  If they make it into the next spring honey flow I then start using last years honey for myself.

As far as "should you just stop feeding meds"?  I never fed them meds right from the start (NUCs).  They did ok.  Don't forget...if you are not going to medicate, make sure you are doing some type of IPM.  I personally do SBB and screened top covers.  Some people believe that you don't need that but I have had luck so far.  Is it because of the IPM???  I don't know...Is it because I don't medicate??? I don't know...  Is it because I have good luck???   I don't know...
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2009, 06:49:25 PM »

BeeHoper,  Last year I was doing sugar feeding in the spring, ans sugar dusting sometime in the summer.  This is the first time I was going to go with "no chemicals.  Then I found out that sugar feeding and sugar dusting is considered a nono if you want to go to all "natural".  So during late Summer, fall, winter and all of this year I did no sugar feeding, no sugar dusting, no chemicals/meds. and I started foundationless.  Got to go slow on the foundationless.  a little at a time until you faze out your foundation frames.  That might take me into next season.  

Then I went to the conference.  Now I really want to keep going with the foundationless.  I allways feed honey for the winter (my reserves for them).  If they make it into the next spring honey flow I then start using last years honey for myself.

As far as "should you just stop feeding meds"?  I never fed them meds right from the start (NUCs).  They did ok.  Don't forget...if you are not going to medicate, make sure you are doing some type of IPM.  I personally do SBB and screened top covers.  Some people believe that you don't need that but I have had luck so far.  Is it because of the IPM???  I don't know...Is it because I don't medicate??? I don't know...  Is it because I have good luck???   I don't know...

gaucho10,

Sounds like you're well on the right path. I thought the foundationless technique would be a slow process, but is it too late to begin now ? I have used soft chems ( apiguard ) in conjunction with the SBB with success, I intend to go chem-free. Will the bees draw out a foundationless deep as willingly as with the mediums that most folks have ? As you can see, the questions are coming out of my noggin now when they should have while at the conference  embarassed
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2009, 06:57:08 PM »

Luckily this is my first year and I had a pretty good idea of how I wanted to do things and it all jived with what we learned at the conference.
I started with nucs this spring and put them right onto foundationless and got rid of the frames they came on within a couple of weeks.
They built them out fairly quickly, some quicker than others. I use all mediums but I don't see what the difference would be with deeps.
I have done no treatments and don't plan to. But I do use screened bottom boards, slatted racks and screened inner covers.
I don't know how much extra frames of honey they will have going into winter given that they had to start out building alot of foundation and we have had alot of rain but I am going to freeze any combs of honey that they don't need to overwinter on and feed them back in the spring.
As far sugar dusting, I believe it causes the same issues in the gut as feeding them sugar so you can consider that.
To be honest since I never planned on using any treatments to begin with I have not familiarized myself apiguard or any of the rest.
Its a risk no matter what, if you don't treat and they die this winter would they have died anyway?

The easy decision for you is probably the feeding, if you can leave them more honey and not have to feed them sugar then you are already making a good change.
I am not sure how much they will build comb right now as far as foundationless or small cell.
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« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2009, 08:21:52 PM »

It was great to meet all of you, and no, Natalie, I was never running away from you.  Smiley
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Natalie
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2009, 09:31:33 PM »

Good to know Michael  grin   I really enjoyed your presentations and appreciate you letting me pick your brain for advice.
Maybe we'll see you at the next one.
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2009, 09:11:57 AM »

Since we don't have a huge fall nectar flow in my area of North Carolina my plan is to wait until Spring to try and start reducing cell size (probably shaking onto foundationless frames).  However, I am going to exeriment with some of what I learned in Michael Palmer's session on overwintering nucs.
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David LaFerney
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2009, 11:25:19 AM »

Envious huh? You should see what I was dealing with this weekend

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv153/natalierosepeterson/Picture048.jpg


Are they threatening you? Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2009, 11:40:49 AM »

The conference was great. Thanks to all.
 
When I walked through the door, behind me was a friend (Jenny) that I hadn't seen in a few years.  Many similar instances followed of meeting new and old friends.  I also got to talk to many beesource folks.

I enjoyed taking with Ramona, Sam Comfort, Michael Bush, and Dee Lusby. On Saturday I ate lunch sitting next to Dee and got a chance to learn about her beekeeping operation. 

I am trying to put together a short presentation for our local beekeepers association. It is difficult to pare down a synopsis of the conference without going into too much detail.

Every presentation generated lots of questions.

I think that all of the speakers would agree upon the following:
You should be keeping bees that are adapted to your local conditions. 
If you (or your bees) are not raising your own queens, then you should be getting them from a local source.

Thanks deknow & Ramona for all of your work!
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"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."
--Thomas Jefferson
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