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Author Topic: Estimating honey flow by takeoffs???  (Read 5675 times)
David Stokely
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« on: July 24, 2009, 11:45:35 AM »

Maybe this has been covered somewhere else, but it seems to me that there should be a way to estimate the level of a honey flow by hive activity.  It stands to reason that the busier the hive is the greater the honey flow.

I'm also thinking that it is easier to count bee takeoffs than landings.  The outbound bees so rapidly depart, while landing bees, especially with cleansing/orientation flights taking place hover and seem to me to practice touch and go landings, etc.

I just sat in front of my hive and it seems like there is a big level of activity going on.  Pollen gathering especially seems to be high.  In the past I would estimate normal being maybe 1 out of 10 returning foragers having pollen.  This morning it seems to be closer to 1 out of 3.  I cannot figure out what is in bloom here.  The pollen is bright lemon yellow, kind of like a dandelion color, but there are really no dandelions in bloom that I can see.  Goldenrod is not going here yet.  I don't know what they are gathering.

In just sitting and estimating with my watch, the best I could count is roughly 100 takeoffs per minute.  Assuming that bees that takeoff must sooner or later land then,  (I mean at the end of the day the landings and takeoffs have to balance out as equal minus those lost in the field) if a third of them are pollen that would make it 60-70 landings/minute of nectar. I'm not seeing hardly any hovering bees on orientation flights, etc. in front of the entrance.  Everyone seems to be focused on leaving the area as quickly as possible on some kind of urgent mission.

According to a little factoid on the Indiana Beekeepers Association website, a bee carries roughly 1 drop of nectar per trip.  An ounce of water is roughly 600 drops.  Nectar is probably somewhat denser, but to use water equivalent, then they are gathering 6 ounces of nectar an hour (60 landings/minute x 60 minutes/hour) = 3600 drops per hour @ 600 drop per ounce = 6 ounces per hour x 10 hours per day = 60 ounces/day or roughly 4+ lbs of nectar per day (due to the higher density of nectar over water).  That seems to be a decent flow to me.  The one thing I'm not sure of is the dilution of the nectar.  I don't know what nectar they are gathering to know how much they must concentrate it for honey?

Just wondering if anyone had any experiences counting landings and trying to determine honey flow from that measure?

a question from an engineer beekeeper. . .LOL

Smiley
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 12:01:34 PM by David Stokely » Logged
David Stokely
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 04:58:46 PM »

Trying to figure out what pollen my bees were collecting, I ran across this 'pdf' table of pollen plants, their blooming times and color.  I thought it was really nice:

http://www.hcbamd.org/files/Pollen_color.pdf

The table was put together by the Howard County, Maryland Beekeepers Association.  I think from their table, it looks to me like my bees may be gathering corn pollen or sweet clover pollen.  Corn pollen is probably more likely. . .
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c10250
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 05:14:40 PM »

I'm in Northern IL, I just counted 150 takeoffs per minute!  They're working something.
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 07:33:56 PM »

WOW....do you get core samples before installing a swingset??  grin j/k

The best way to know what is going on with flows is a scale hive with daily checks of the weight. This can also tell you things like if your hive swarmed. Also remember this time of year especially when it is hot they are bringing in water.
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c10250
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 08:22:52 PM »

WOW....do you get core samples before installing a swingset??  grin j/k

.... Also remember this time of year especially when it is hot they are bringing in water.

Hot??  What's that? You would think you're in NW Ontario if you came to Chicago this year.  I think I ran my AC one night all summer.
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David Stokely
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 10:02:03 PM »

No heat here either.  We're having the coolest summer in over 50 years.  I don't have a hive scale.  My little calculations are just for fun, something to do while watching the bees go in and out of the hive.
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MustbeeNuts
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2009, 10:11:06 PM »

I found out that if you have 100 one way flights out its time for another super. seems to be the case for me. what they bring in , no idea, but they fill up like champs.
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2009, 10:48:52 PM »

Sheesh.....we have been over 100 many days this summer...close today.
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David Stokely
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 01:07:06 PM »

MustbeeNuts:

I don't understand how the number of one way flights out indicates the need for a additional super?. . .Please explain if you can how you found that out?

Thanks (very much still in the learning mode)

 Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley


Dave
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 10:24:39 PM »

A much more experienced beek told me that, I was asking the same as yu, about flights in an out. I was told that somewere over 80bees a min meant that the supers were filling up with either brood or honey, something to do with the amount of bees available to forage. I don't know why its that way but for example I have a hive now with 160+ bees going out, so approx 320 round trips per min, well that hive has the seventh  super on it, and still a month and a half of goldenrod flow coming, Granted med supers but still. I guess it has something to do with room availabe ifthere full there is more bees available to run around, if there working inside they need more bees inside. and that hive was a new package.!!

I grant you it is strange but I have a hive a new split, it only has 6 frames full, I only see 40 bees one way, there aren't enough bees to cover the brood so they stay behind, just my thoughts but the brood area isn't full of brood yet, about 4 frames of  brood.No super needed. I have another with barely 20 bees a min, its got also near 5 frames but only 2 are brood, no need to add, don't ask me why it works butyou can see the ratio of bees, but now the ones with 80 bees, have full boxes of bees and brood or honey, time to add a super.
I imagin its just some ratio of bees in hive to foragers, Just my thoughts. I am sure someone with more experience could add to this, either to say I'm wrong or right. Or explain the rational,

try it you'll see that i'm right, if you got 80+ one way flights check the top box. see how close it is to needing one. I'll bet its pretty close.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 12:08:32 PM »

Maybe this has been covered somewhere else, but it seems to me that there should be a way to estimate the level of a honey flow by hive activity.  It stands to reason that the busier the hive is the greater the honey flow.

I'm also thinking that it is easier to count bee takeoffs than landings.  The outbound bees so rapidly depart, while landing bees, especially with cleansing/orientation flights taking place hover and seem to me to practice touch and go landings, etc.

I just sat in front of my hive and it seems like there is a big level of activity going on.  Pollen gathering especially seems to be high.  In the past I would estimate normal being maybe 1 out of 10 returning foragers having pollen.  This morning it seems to be closer to 1 out of 3.  I cannot figure out what is in bloom here.  The pollen is bright lemon yellow, kind of like a dandelion color, but there are really no dandelions in bloom that I can see.  Goldenrod is not going here yet.  I don't know what they are gathering.

In just sitting and estimating with my watch, the best I could count is roughly 100 takeoffs per minute.  Assuming that bees that takeoff must sooner or later land then,  (I mean at the end of the day the landings and takeoffs have to balance out as equal minus those lost in the field) if a third of them are pollen that would make it 60-70 landings/minute of nectar. I'm not seeing hardly any hovering bees on orientation flights, etc. in front of the entrance.  Everyone seems to be focused on leaving the area as quickly as possible on some kind of urgent mission.

According to a little factoid on the Indiana Beekeepers Association website, a bee carries roughly 1 drop of nectar per trip.  An ounce of water is roughly 600 drops.  Nectar is probably somewhat denser, but to use water equivalent, then they are gathering 6 ounces of nectar an hour (60 landings/minute x 60 minutes/hour) = 3600 drops per hour @ 600 drop per ounce = 6 ounces per hour x 10 hours per day = 60 ounces/day or roughly 4+ lbs of nectar per day (due to the higher density of nectar over water).  That seems to be a decent flow to me.  The one thing I'm not sure of is the dilution of the nectar.  I don't know what nectar they are gathering to know how much they must concentrate it for honey?

Just wondering if anyone had any experiences counting landings and trying to determine honey flow from that measure?

a question from an engineer beekeeper. . .LOL

Smiley


Bees are very smart and know what is needed in the hive. That's why sometimes you see them with nectar and sometimes with pollen.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2009, 12:58:25 PM »

As usual, I ate my lunch today watching the hive in my back yard.  My goodness, huge level of activity!  I counted 50 or more takeoffs in 15-20 seconds and I don't know that that number isn't low.  They were just taking off in squadrons of 5-10 almost continually.  I was counting as fast as I could and I just couldn't keep up.  Something big must be in bloom, but I have no idea as to what.  I do not see anything much blooming in the lawns around my house.  I live within a couple of hundred yards of a river, the other side of which is an agricultural area also with lowland/floodplain areas on that side.  I'll be very interested to see what progress they've made this week, when I next inspect them this weekend.

Go girls go!!!

 Smiley

Across the river from me are large areas of corn growing.  I've read where bees can get pollen from field corn, but can they get nectar also?  I would't guess it would make great honey, or at least my Google search didn't come up with hits of anyone advertising the selling of "Corn Honey". . . LOL
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Joelel
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 07:16:44 PM »

As usual, I ate my lunch today watching the hive in my back yard.  My goodness, huge level of activity!  I counted 50 or more takeoffs in 15-20 seconds and I don't know that that number isn't low.  They were just taking off in squadrons of 5-10 almost continually.  I was counting as fast as I could and I just couldn't keep up.  Something big must be in bloom, but I have no idea as to what.  I do not see anything much blooming in the lawns around my house.  I live within a couple of hundred yards of a river, the other side of which is an agricultural area also with lowland/floodplain areas on that side.  I'll be very interested to see what progress they've made this week, when I next inspect them this weekend.

Go girls go!!!

 Smiley

Across the river from me are large areas of corn growing.  I've read where bees can get pollen from field corn, but can they get nectar also?  I would't guess it would make great honey, or at least my Google search didn't come up with hits of anyone advertising the selling of "Corn Honey". . . LOL


They say one take off a second is a good strong hive. It depends on how far they have to fly and what their gathering and how many workers graduated to worker at a given time.I sometimes have many more then one a second.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Jim 134
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2009, 06:05:43 AM »

               Joelel ...


   Are all you'r bees bring home nectar ? I hope so how about only water on hot 90+ days how about propolis and pollen    



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley


 
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David Stokely
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2009, 07:20:14 AM »

I may have found the cause for my recent frantic hive activity.  Here is an excerpt from an article in Bee Culture Magazine:

There is no evidence that honey bees significantly increase soybean production by aiding pollination (Danka and Villa 2004), but commercial beekeepers profit from setting hives near monoculture soybean fields. In Tennessee, for example, it is reported that large quantities of surplus honey crops have been produced by bees working soybean fields (Hivetool.com 2003). As a marketable commodity, soybean honey ranks high among the nectar crops. Soybean honey is desirable in both taste and nutritive properties, and its high antioxidant content makes it an ideal preservative for use in the food industry (Engseth 1999). To the hobbyist beekeeper, soybean is a readily available and abundant source of nectar and pollen for their bees, providing forage from Spring to Fall in warmer climates.

Read the entire article at this link:
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=442

There surely are soybean fields in the agricultural area across the river from me.  I hadn't thought of soybeans as a honey crop, but  it sounds like this could definitely be where they are going.  I'll check out the bloom state of the fields.

 Smiley
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jimmyo
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2009, 10:16:20 AM »

Try walking the fields and see what they are working. check stagnant creeks and see if they are picking up water. This time of year it is mostly water in SE Indiana. Joe Pye is blooming and dutch white is still blooming but not much honey from it. Watch for golden rod to bloom then you'll see action.
Jim
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2009, 10:33:13 AM »

Of course this want help with ag sources but neat to look at!

http://www.pollen.com/allergy-weather-forecast.asp
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2009, 11:06:38 AM »

              Joelel ...


   Are all you'r bees bring home nectar ? I hope so how about only water on hot 90+ days how about propolis and pollen    



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley


 

Yes all bees Carry alot of water and more when hot.Some kind of bees carry more propolis then others,some use more the other kind do. All hives carry pollen and nectar.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:05:20 PM by Joelel » Logged

Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
David Stokely
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2009, 12:02:50 PM »

In this area, I think it safe to say they aren't carrying much water.  We are in the midst of (to use winter terminology) a bitterly cold summer. Here's a link to the U.S. Weather Service page for my town:

http://www.uswx.com/chron/wx/in/46507/?obshr=720#GRA

About 2/3rds of the way down the page, is a chart for the temps for the last 30 days.  Count em. . .we have had 5 days in the last month that got over 80° and 6 days that got to 80°.  On zero days has it gotten to 85°.  The rest of the time, that means 19 days that it has only been in the 70's or below.  Note there are 4 days in the last 30 where it never reached 70°.  That is incredible.  I mean, northern Indiana isn't the tropics, but I don't think it would be a hot summer for us if every day in July was hotter than 80°.  Tomatoes are late here.  Sweet corn is very late. . .This is a cold summer.  I read a day or two ago that Chicago (about 100 miles west of here) is having the coldest July since record keeping began at the present location 62 years ago.

In addition, I'll try to get some pictures, but my bee hive is right on the edge of my backyard pond.  The landing board is a little more than a foot away from the water.  The frogs in the pond wait for bees that come up short and land in the water.  Sometimes there will be 3 or 4 frogs in the water in front of the hive.  I occasionally do see the bees on the lily pads or on any floating algae apparently getting water, but they aren't numerous.

 Smiley


« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:46:31 PM by David Stokely » Logged
c10250
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2009, 05:54:45 PM »

Here's some entering and leaving . . . bee line . . .

There are actually more entering and leaving than shown in the video, the video just show's those leaving straight up through the sun.

Make sure you watch in HD by clicking the "HD" button.



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David Stokely
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2009, 07:21:01 AM »

I was pleasantly surprised when I did a little quick inspection of my north hive (several miles from here).  It had been lagging behind the hive in my back yard, but in the week since my last look-in, the girls have drawn out and filled the majority of 5 frames and have done some minor work on 2-3 other frames.  The super is getting close to half full after one week.

The south hive (in my back yard by the pond) where I have been seeing all the tremendous activity has barely started drawing out any frames in the top super.  I was so surprised.  Reading other posts here at beemaster.com, I'm figuring that this hive must be back filling the brood chambers.  I'm going to get into both hives this weekend and look completely through them to see how they are doing.  I'm really going to give the honey super foundation a good spraying down with my sugar syrup/lemon grass oil/sea salt mixture to try and get them working up there.

C10250 - I watched your video.  That was pretty neat.  Pretty thick foliage around there.

Jimmyo - I wish I had some big stands of Joe Pye around here.  I take wildlife pictures and that is one of my most favorite flowering plants.  The butterflies especially love Joe Pye.  It's not very common that I find it and then only in small patches.  Here's a link to a picture of mine of a swallowtail butterfly on Joe Pye I took a couple of years ago:

http://www.photoportfolios.net/portfolio/pf.cgi?a=vp&pr=58306&pi=WEB_WALKER_1&CGISESSID=c36d7c7d95c7caf06079c70875e148c0&u=19448

If anyone knows where I might buy Joe Pye honey I'd love to get some.  That plant really intrigues me.


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jimmyo
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 07:50:58 AM »

great photo
Joe Pye is hit and miss around here too.
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David Stokely
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 01:56:32 PM »

After another coolish and rainy weekend we are having some of the first real summer weather of the season and the girls seem to be loving it.  Huge hive activity when I go home for lunch each noon this week.  Yesterday and today takeoffs of more than 120/minute and when I peeked in the honey super last night they've pretty well filled two medium frames since Saturday.  That's at the hive at my house.  I'll check my north hive tonight after work.  

I continue to be baffled by what they could be gathering.  Speaking to a local bee guru, as I bought some foundation from him a week or so ago, I mentioned that I thought they might be getting soy bean nectar.  This very experienced beekeeper lives about 15 miles to the south of me and his response to that wast that he has never seen any soy bean honey in his hives in all his years of beekeeping.  I talked to him about the article that I read in Bee Culture Magazine on soy bean honey and he was familiar with what is said about it, but standing in his bee yard, literally surrounded in almost every direction by large fields of blooming soy beans, he says that he has never seen any nectar flow from the beans.  So I don't know.  What ever they are gathering is almost water clear and 90% of their traffic is from the one point on the compass in which the closest soy bean fields are found.  There might be something else out there.  It is also in the same direct as a lot of bottom land next to the river.  Who knows.  I guess the taste test will be the only way to know for sure, but then I have no idea what soy bean honey tastes like. . .Oh well.  I'll just be glad to get some honey this year.  Sounds like I may be the exception rather than the rule.

The local guru said that I'm the only one buying supplies for honey supers.  He hasn't taken any honey off yet and isn't optimistic about having much if any at all this year, so if I can get a few gallons I'll be pretty happy.

 Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley


 
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 09:03:16 PM »

I'm still not able to wrap my around around a perceived guarantee that a lot of bees coming back into the hives directly equates to a lot of nectar being brought back into the hive.  This seems like a pretty big assumption, much like all the fishermen coming home at the end of the day - don't assume that they brought a large (or any) catch.  I'd feel much more comfortable with going off of an increase in hive weight, or even finding a lot of wet fresh nectar in the frames as a true indication.  A lot of the other notes are right on, but I'd have reservations about using traffic as the indicator.

My $0.02
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 09:50:42 PM by 1of6 » Logged
David Stokely
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 06:14:43 AM »

My only response to that would be, and please forgive me I surely am no expert at this, but that there would seem to be to me a lot more uncertainty to going fishing than gathering nectar.  Obviously someone has to find the nectar initially, but I think bees go out in numbers in response to nectar found.  I remember seeing little videos of bees doing their little dance, communicating by the energy and direction of their dance the quantity of flowers, and the direction, distance, etc. 

I could understand the activity being just explorers or scouts going out, if the activity was evenly spread to pretty much all points of the compass, but this activity is so concentrated in just one direction.  Like I said before 9 of 10 bees leaving are going to the northwest. . .

So far to me there seems to be a strong correlation between takeoff activity and comb drawn and filled.  The exception being when they were backfilling the brood chambers.  Then I saw lots of hive activity every day, but nothing being put up in the honey super, now that they seem to have competed that, they are again drawing out the honey super frames and filling them. [I added another honey super last night.  I'm going to be on vacation next week and I think at the rate they are going that they will fill the existing medium before I get back]

On cool cloudy days the takeoff activity is a small fraction of what it is on a warm sunny day, but on days of cloud and rain after sunshine, the takeoff  activity remains high.

I agree the only certain way is to weigh the hive.  I don't have a hive scale.  This is just something that I think about as I eat my lunch and watch the hive each day.

I really appreciate your comments. . . .

Thanks,

 Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 09:28:49 AM »

Good correlations can usually be drawn between weather factors + time of season and nectar flows, but I'm sure you can see there a good many variables there too.  It's so easy for us to have weather this year where the bees either can't be out to forage enough, or there isn't a good flow on.  It's really tough to gauge without picking frames out and examining, but yeah, activity is still a good thing to watch.  Wet nectar in the hive will really tell you the story though.

BTW, throw away any assumption that we are experts here either Smiley as we all have different local variables, different climate conditions, different strains of bees, different levels of experience, different management styles, and are operating on a different day of the week.  It's fun to watch here just what people are seeing in their areas and compare them with our own.  I count my blessings that I don't have to deal with some of the issues that other folks do, but then I find myself envious of the guy in California with 11 supers stacked up who has a year-round flow.  It's just different everywhere you go, and different for everyone.  My mentor down the road had 100% loss this past winter.  I had 10% loss.  Yes we have different management techniques, but strangely enough, being 3 miles apart, our honey always tastes and looks vastly different.  So many factors.  I know that my bees have access to stuff up on teh side of the mountain that his don't, and at times it's the stuff up there that's providing the nectar flow, not the stuff down by us.  But yes, this year is just topsey-turvey.

David, have a great vacation and watch to see what sources you see and what bee activity you spot while you're on vacation.  It'll be interesting for you to comare it to your home environment upon your return.  We also look forward to hearing how that super gets filled out.

Take care and be safe,
-Doug
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 09:43:34 AM by 1of6 » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 11:24:47 PM »

Take off and landings per second is not a reliable way to equate honey flow. 
Why?
Consider:
How much of the activity at the front of the hive is from orientation flights?
What % of foragers are actually gathering nectar verses the other forage components of propolis, pollen, and water?
On a hot day there is a good chance the majority of foragers gathering water to air condition the hive.
On mild to warm days there is more likely a larger % of bees concentrating on nectar and pollen because the need for air conditioning is not as vital.
Not every bee that gathers nectar also collects pollen and visa versa.
I've seen hives with temps in the 70's gather more nectar with less entrance activity than hives do with temps in the 90's or above and much more activity.
What is blooming, how much there is, and distance to the source all play their role in, aka the state of the honey flow plays a part.
Pre-swarm brood buildup will switch the forage activity more to pollen over nectar.

There's other factors but that should give a idea. 

The best a beekeeper can hope for is a large population boom prior to a major honey flow so that the hive can take full advantage of the available forage.
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David Stokely
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 07:13:17 AM »

I surely agree with the pollen.  In my original calculations, I tried to subtract the percentage of bees returning with pollen.  Yesterday was just a huge pollen day.  I think every bit of 1 of 3 and maybe even close to 1 of 2 were returning with pollen.  The day before it was maybe 1 of 10 coming back with pollen, so obviously that does factor in.  And I do also realize that water is often carried.  That surely would confuse the issue, but it's just not a factor here right now.  My hive is immediately next to a pond and I might see an occasional bee on the lily pads getting water, but not many at all.  There just hasn't been any heat here all summer.  It is a very hot day this year that gets to more than 80°.

In my little system, I have tried to only count only departures as I think that you can tell the difference between bees departing for foraging from bees on orientation flights.  I try to watch 2 -3 feet away from the hive and the leaving foragers are rapid straight line bullets shooting through the wafting cloud of hovering orientation bees.

The big uncertainty to me is, "Do returning foragers come back empty? or only partially full?" or the reverse of that, "Does the hive send out lots of foragers if there's nothing to gather?"  My instinct tells me no, but instinct can lead you astray.  The whole basis of this theory is that if great numbers of bees are going out, then they must be getting something or the hive wouldn't be wasting precious honey resources of bees burning up lots of energy for fruitless flights.  

Another unknown, which I would think would be a far far smaller percentage is how many are gathering propolis?

I really wish I had a hive scale, again not that it matters that much to me.  It's going to be what it's going to be as far as honey flow and crop, but it would be neat to investigate further in this direction, but I do see a relationship in busy leaving activity and nectar filling the frames.

I'm leaving on vacation in a few hours and I won't have a computer where I'm going, so I won't be able to respond again until next week. . .

Bye.

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