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Author Topic: supers are on mite are strong  (Read 3818 times)
danno
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« on: July 09, 2009, 08:44:38 AM »

I have a colony that is very strong with 3 supers going well.  Yesterday I found a very high mite load and if I dont jump on them this colony will colapse.   If I pull the supers to treat I fear they will swarm.  Last night I came up with a plan to put a 3rd deep with foundation to give them room and  something to do and start the treatment.  Will this work and does it make sense?  Any comments would be appreciated
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danno
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 09:26:14 AM »

36 veiws 24 hours and no answers?  Thanks!   I'll figure it out for myself
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 09:48:00 AM »

I have had a few posts like that, danno.  I don't know why.  Kinda thought maybe I was getting black balled...LOL 

I wish I could help you, but I am a newbie.  I will say it sounds plausible.  I have heard that the main thing is to give the queen enough room anyway.  Since that is what it sounds like you are doing, I would guess that it would work.

I would be interested in the results.       
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 09:57:53 AM »

if the people who view your posts don't have an answer, do you really just want folks to post any old thing?  to my knowledge, you have done nothing to make people not want to answer you...until now.  perhaps no one has a good answer for you?

it might also be that people don't look in this forum regularly.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 10:16:29 AM »

if the people who view your posts don't have an answer, do you really just want folks to post any old thing?  to my knowledge, you have done nothing to make people not want to answer you...until now.  perhaps no one has a good answer for you?
kathyp maybe i should have asked a question about the Obama or something about the economy.   Sorry I had a bee related question

Some probably many on here have had this same problem.  5 boxes, 2 deeps and 3 mediums filled with a monster colony and a very high mite count.  Its early July and they need a 21 day treatment.  What to do?   Do I pull supers and crowd them down hopeing they'll stay put for 3 weeks?   Do I just wait until after the thistle is done hopeing they dont crash and treat on schedule with all the rest.  Or do I pull supers and give them more room w/ another deep and treat them NOW
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 10:40:55 AM »

Some probably many on here have had this same problem.  5 boxes, 2 deeps and 3 mediums filled with a monster colony and a very high mite count.  Its early July and they need a 21 day treatment.  What to do?   Do I pull supers and crowd them down hopeing they'll stay put for 3 weeks?   Do I just wait until after the thistle is done hopeing they dont crash and treat on schedule with all the rest.  Or do I pull supers and give them more room w/ another deep and treat them NOW
Wouldn't dusting with powdered suger help them to self groom the mites down to a level that would hold them over until after the summer? This would avoid any medication contamination of the honey.
But hey. I'm a newby as well and not in a position to give knowledgeable advice.
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 10:56:14 AM »

Two things:

First off, I understand your question a bit better, Danno.  I am not qualified to answer.  I thought you were asking about the addition of the deep.  I see now that the question was more about timing of treatment. 

Secondly, I was kidding about being black-balled.  I was attempting to lighten up a bit. 

I definitely see your point about the posts, though.  I don't see why some posts, not mine neccessarily, get few responses.  They are legitimate questions about bees, yet others about off topic subjects get myriad responses. 

Maybe it is the mood.  Maybe no one has a good answer.  Regardless, I generally get questions answered.  It is frustrating when they aren't, though.

Sorry, I am of little help.  I think supers need to be removed for powdered sugar treatments, though.  NOT sure, but I think so.
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annette
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 11:15:46 AM »

I was one of the beeks who viewed your post, but I do not treat my bees so I did not have any answer.

Someone will come forth soon, I am sure

Annette
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 11:19:05 AM »

if it were me, i'd pull the honey supers and do the PS, then put the honey supers back on. if you are worried about them tracking PS into honey, leave the honey supers off for a few hours, but put them where they won't get robbed.

i don't know about others, but i don't check each and every forum every day. when i have time, i catch up.  i saw this one because i looked at the unread posts section this morning.

we all do our best to answer questions as we can.  there are a few very knowledgeable people (not me) who take the bulk of the questions most of the time.  it is unreasonable to think that those few would be able to jump on every question, every time, and give you quick answers.  if you want to get snarky about who answers what, and on what forum, go for it.  i can guarantee that it won't get you better answers, faster.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
danno
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 11:51:52 AM »

Heres the thing.   I have about 30 mostly strong colonies.  They were all treated this spring.  This one has a problem with mites and many  bees now have deformed wing virus.   I want to nip it in the butt now this weekend and in about 2 hrs  I will be off line for a few days.   I will not treat with honey supers on.  I have used powdered sugar but I think I am to late for that now.   I will most likely use organic acid starting Sat.  I have also wanted to try a heavy smoking with sumac.  Sumac is high in tannic acid (another organic)and I would think it alone might knock a few mites down.  Thistle is coming on fast and this colony would have produced 100#s   I hate to take it out of production but dont want to loose it to mites or to swarming.   Anyway thanks for the help.   
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Natalie
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 12:05:04 PM »

There are quite alot of new members to this board so 36 of them probably viewed your post and moved on because they don't know the answer.
I know I don't.
People like Michael, Iddee, JP and Brian who answer alot of questions aren't always on here 24 hours a day, they seem to come on and answer alot of questions every couple of days and maybe they just haven't gotten to yours yet.
Patience is a virtue. Wink
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 12:34:55 PM »

Danno,

Seems to me your logic about getting the supers off, adding another deep and treating is good.  Another option might be to do a "cut down split" per Michael Bush's website http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdowncombine.  You could leave the supers on the hive without the brood and let the bees continue to work the thistle (making the most of the honey crop).  As this hive is also raising a new queen, it would break the brood cycle and hopefully help with the mites.  The second hive (the one with the brood), you could go ahead and treat.

...Tim
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danno
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 12:41:18 PM »

Danno,

Seems to me your logic about getting the supers off, adding another deep and treating is good.  Another option might be to do a "cut down split" per Michael Bush's website http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdowncombine.  You could leave the supers on the hive without the brood and let the bees continue to work the thistle (making the most of the honey crop).  As this hive is also raising a new queen, it would break the brood cycle and hopefully help with the mites.  The second hive (the one with the brood), you could go ahead and treat.

...Tim

Thanks Tim!   This is one route that I didn't consider
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iddee
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 08:27:37 PM »

>>>>The Heartland Apicultural Society (HAS) will host its annual summer conference July 9-11 (Thursday – Saturday)<<<<

>>>>July 9-11, 2009 NCSBA Summer Meeting, Wilkesboro, NC <<<<

Please forgive us.

With both HAS and NC beek's summer meeting being held Thurs. thru Sat., you should have warned us ahead that you would have a question. Then all 4 or 5 thousand of us could have canceled our plans and stayed home to answer it.

Let us know in time next year and we will reschedule both events.
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2009, 09:34:56 AM »

Danno, where's your O.A. vapourizer?  Why haven't you used that on this colony, you need to help them immediately, they will collapse soon if you don't, plain and simple.  There are probably thousands of mites on that colony.  Get that vapourizer in their and treat them, period.  You know how I feel about not treating mites.  It is integral to this colony, period.  Have a great and most wonderful day, that great health too.  Cindi

PS. You don't have time for that 21 day treatment with formic acid.  Oxalic acid three treatments several days apart.
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2009, 01:02:25 PM »

36 veiws 24 hours and no answers?  Thanks!   I'll figure it out for myself

I read it, but I'm not qualified to answer.  However, I would make this observation - try to use a subject line that really sums up what the post is about, I bet a lot of people scan subjects and then only read posts that they think will be interesting. 

Your subject "supers are on mite are strong" is certainly a lot better than "Please Help!" or something like that, but "supers are on mite are strong - What should I do?" might have grabbed the attention of the experts a bit better. 

Might try "supers are on mite are strong - how 'bout them wacky Dems?"

 Wink
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danno
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 07:46:55 AM »

Danno, where's your O.a. vapourizer?  Why haven't you used that on this colony, you need to help them immediately, they will collapse soon if you don't, plain and simple.  There are probably thousands of mites on that colony.  Get that vapourizer in their and treat them, period.  You know how I feel about not treating mites.  It is integral to this colony, period.  Have a great and most wonderful day, that great health too.  Cindi

PS. You don't have time for that 21 day treatment with formic acid.  Oxalic acid three treatments several days apart.

I started friday and will hit them again maybe wed then again beginning of next week.    This colony has a screened bottom board that I put the insert in coated with conola oil.  I checked it on Sat evening and found only a few mites and some pollen all being hauled out by ants.   The only thing they are leaving is the wax scale.  I'm sure its working but would sure like to see some dead.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:30:44 PM by danno » Logged
kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2009, 04:02:28 PM »

i have a hive that had a very high mite count.  i was fussing about it on ventrillo one night.  i checked it the other day and the mite count is very low now.  this is a hive that i have never treated.  it came from a swarm out of a tree hive that throws two or three swarms a year.  i had debated treating this hive, but will wait now and see how they look in a couple of weeks.  

there are two that came from pollination hives that look like they may need to be treated this year.  you just never know how they'll do with mites until you have a chance to observe them for a bit.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »

I just got back in town from HAS.

>a very high mite load

Define this.  How many?  What method?

Partly I probably wouldn't have responded because we obviously have different philosophies:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm

>They were all treated this spring.

So I'm not sure you'll appreciate my advice.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 12:33:37 AM »

Hi Danno,
    I posted a similar question on another forum and also got few answers. Finally got a few and obviously there are some very different opinions about the best way to deal with the situation.  You have the treaters and those that don't.  I think Tim's comment perhaps is the best idea.  I've decided to wait until August and if they make it that long, I may do something to help them through the winter and if they don't make it to the end of August, so it goes.  Not much help here but at least a response.
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RayMarler
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2009, 01:33:39 AM »

you could maybe do a shook swarm on them. shake all the bees off the frames of brood. Place the shook brood in a different hive that could use a boost that has no or little stores so you can treat it for mites. The shook hive then is broodless, and a couple powder sugar treatments a couple or three days apart should get most of the remaining mites out, and won't contaminate the honey supers.
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2009, 03:13:56 AM »

I agree With Ray.. at least inderectly... break their brood cycle is a good option for production.. pull brood and pop in some drone foundation... or pull all the honey off them and treat the brood boxes, you might loose a littel flow. Its your choice at this point, depends on if you want to risk the hive.  You migh make enough off the honey to buy a nuc and start them over in case they dont make it.. all depends on your view of economics -vs- ethics in bee keeping. Either way I wish you the best of luck!
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2009, 09:20:49 PM »

I've been sick for the last 2 weeks so I haven't had access to the computer.  Also, on some questions possed, I don't always answer immediately because I want to think about the problem posed and offer the best advise available.  Then when I come back to it later it has already been answered in a similar vain has I was going to and I don't see reasons for repetative entrees.

Now to your question, here's my answer.  The best way to reduce the mite load in a hurry is to induce a brood dearth.  With no brood to reproduce in the mites are soon shed from their temporary host, the worker and drone bee.  The quickest and easiest way to induce a brood dearth is a walk-away split.

I like to inform as to why I make a given recommendation, hope you don't mind, it tends to help the newbees understand the mechanics of beekeeping.
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2009, 09:53:13 PM »


Now to your question, here's my answer.  The best way to reduce the mite load in a hurry is to induce a brood dearth.  With no brood to reproduce in the mites are soon shed from their temporary host, the worker and drone bee.  The quickest and easiest way to induce a brood dearth is a walk-away split.


So if you do a split when the mite load is high, what does that do to the mite count in the hive that gets the old queen?

Sorry to hear you've been sick - I hope you're well now.
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danno
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2009, 07:34:55 AM »

Thanks Brian
Hope your feeling better.  Your opinion has always been important to me
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2009, 01:12:55 AM »


Now to your question, here's my answer.  The best way to reduce the mite load in a hurry is to induce a brood dearth.  With no brood to reproduce in the mites are soon shed from their temporary host, the worker and drone bee.  The quickest and easiest way to induce a brood dearth is a walk-away split.


So if you do a split when the mite load is high, what does that do to the mite count in the hive that gets the old queen?

Sorry to hear you've been sick - I hope you're well now.


Think about the method of a split, the old queen is removed from the hive, along with a few frames of capped brood, and placed in a new hive along with new frames and/or foundation.  The split with the old queen will backfill the drawn combs as the brood hatches, since the older work force is harvesting nectar faster than it can be converted into wax,  reducing the room the queen has to lay eggs, this slows the reproduction rate down to a crawl for several weeks.  During that time the majority of mites will fall off their temporary hosts so that as the brood production is ramped up there is a much small population of mites that can enter the brood cells and reproduce, also, the majority of thos eggs are worker brood reducing the mite reproduction because of the lack of drone comb.
In the old hive, an egg is selected and a new queen is created.  Fom the period of begining the making of a queen until she hatches, mates, and begins laying is more than 30 days, again the majority of the mites have fallen from their temporary ride so there is few to begin their reproduction since the new queen starts slow the brood dearth lasts for over 60 days in the hive with the new queen, and nearly 30 days in the new hive with the old queen.
In the case of the old queen you have a guessimation of over 60% mite reduction, and in the case of the new queen, nearly 90% in mite load reduction.
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2009, 02:41:15 AM »


Now to your question, here's my answer.  The best way to reduce the mite load in a hurry is to induce a brood dearth.  With no brood to reproduce in the mites are soon shed from their temporary host, the worker and drone bee.  The quickest and easiest way to induce a brood dearth is a walk-away split.


So if you do a split when the mite load is high, what does that do to the mite count in the hive that gets the old queen?



Sorry to hear you've been sick - I hope you're well now.


Think about the method of a split, the old queen is removed from the hive, along with a few frames of capped brood, and placed in a new hive along with new frames and/or foundation.  The split with the old queen will backfill the drawn combs as the brood hatches, since the older work force is harvesting nectar faster than it can be converted into wax,  reducing the room the queen has to lay eggs, this slows the reproduction rate down to a crawl for several weeks.  During that time the majority of mites will fall off their temporary hosts so that as the brood production is ramped up there is a much small population of mites that can enter the brood cells and reproduce, also, the majority of thos eggs are worker brood reducing the mite reproduction because of the lack of drone comb.
In the old hive, an egg is selected and a new queen is created.  Fom the period of begining the making of a queen until she hatches, mates, and begins laying is more than 30 days, again the majority of the mites have fallen from their temporary ride so there is few to begin their reproduction since the new queen starts slow the brood dearth lasts for over 60 days in the hive with the new queen, and nearly 30 days in the new hive with the old queen.
In the case of the old queen you have a guessimation of over 60% mite reduction, and in the case of the new queen, nearly 90% in mite load reduction.

It sounds like making splits at strategic times should be the key to managing mites.  That is very helpful information.  Thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2009, 09:24:03 AM »

I have a colony that is very strong with 3 supers going well.  Yesterday I found a very high mite load and if I dont jump on them this colony will colapse.   If I pull the supers to treat I fear they will swarm.  Last night I came up with a plan to put a 3rd deep with foundation to give them room and  something to do and start the treatment.  Will this work and does it make sense?  Any comments would be appreciated

 I'm just now getting over to this part of the forum. I would pull the suppers and if i don't have time to work the honey i would freeze it.I would pull about 1 or 2 frames from the body and replace them with empty frames or put a small supper on kept for when treating only and treat..
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