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Author Topic: the coup in Honduras  (Read 1614 times)
kathyp
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« on: June 30, 2009, 11:28:12 AM »

our prez has come out against the military action in Honduras.  i have been told, but have not verified, that the Honduran military takes an oath similar to ours. that is, to protect and defend the constitution.
wonder if the ousting of the president of Honduras over his unconstitutional actions is making our prez a little nervous??

one can only hope.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 11:44:25 AM »

I'm sorry to admit this, but I don't have a good handle on the whole story yet. Am I correct in understanding that the current president refused to step down, when by their constitution and laws, he should have?
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 12:02:31 PM »

he wanted to run for another term, in violation of their constitution.  the supreme court said no.  he ordered the constitution be changed, something he did not have the presidential power to do.  military stepped in a booted him.  he and chavez are buddies and i'm sure they saw another venezuela type dictatorship coming.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 05:51:24 PM »

Ahhh. Thanks for the information.
I had to work over the weekend, and I just saw one small clip of what was going on, and didn't have time to scan the web for the story.
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asprince
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 07:31:15 PM »

Our President and the UN are backing him and calling for his return to power. Makes you proud doesn't it?

Someone please explain the big picture to me.

Steve
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »

Someone please explain the big picture to me.


Do you mean the big picture of the story, or the BIG picture, as in the meaning of life? Wink

I read the WSJ story a little while ago, and it appears that the president of Honduras (who is basically a leftist and has much support from the poor classes in his country), likes the power, and decided he would just have a referendum which would override their constitution, and allow him to run for president again. In Honduras, presidents only serve one term, and cannot run again. The primary problem with his plan, as far as I can tell, is that they can't have a referendum election within 6 months of a political election (which was due to happen at the end of the year), so basically, he was attempting to subvert that law in order to run for a second term. The supreme court of Honduras determined that he was acting unlawfully, and ordered the military to physically remove him from his home, and exile him to Costa Rica(?), and another man, in his own party was put in the presidential roll (I believe it was coordinated by their congress).
Anyway, it's a strange story, with a couple of questionable events, on both sides of the fence, imo.
Apparently, the ousted president is supported by the Castro brothers, Chavez, and another dictator whose name escapes me at the moment.

Now, if you were asking about the BIG picture, that's another thread. grin

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asprince
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 08:00:50 PM »


Apparently, the ousted president is supported by the Castro brothers, Chavez, and another dictator whose name escapes me at the moment.


This is the big picture. Why is OUR President and the rest of the world backing another dictator nut?

Steve   
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 08:06:41 PM »

the big picture depends on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are.  remember our conversation about the north american union, and i said that it couldn't happen without some radical changes in our constitution?  at the time, i didn't see how the people of the us and our congress would support such changes.  i can see it now.  i did not see a statist government happening in my lifetime, be we are fast getting there.  i did not see how a one world government could happen when there are (were) so many countries, especially ours, who valued independence and democracy.  i can see how it could happen now.

it is what it is, and maybe what it's supposed to be, but it is sad that we put ourselves here.  it would have been better to have been defeated in war, than to have given it all up.

and not backing what could have been the long awaited revolution in iran?

Franken makes 60.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 08:48:29 PM »


This is the big picture. Why is OUR President and the rest of the world backing another dictator nut?

Oh. THAT big picture. Smiley

It gets a little spongy here. Both sides did some pretty dicey stuff during the unfolding of the coup.

The Honduran president was getting pretty power-hungry, no question. He decided, apparently on his own, to have his own little referendum vote to keep power.  The military in Honduras typically hands out ballots, which they were refusing to do. I don't think that's the problem. What is the problem, as far as I can tell, is that the supreme court of Honduras probably ordered an illegal coup by the military. Remember, the president had not had the referendum vote yet, but wanted to. I'm not sure why the supreme court and/or congress of Honduras simply said no, and refused to allow the vote to occur. Instead, they removed a president with military force, which was not a democratic action, and probably not in accordance with their constitution (as far as I can understand).
What we have is a president who wishes to break constitutional law, but hasn't yet, and a court who removed a president without going through the democratic/ constitutional process of doing so.
As much as I loathe dictators, Chavez, Obama, and whats-his-name can have the appearance of supporting lawful and constitutional actions, while supporting a wannabe dictator at the same time. It's a pretty strange situation.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 09:07:32 PM »

it will take a bit to sort out, but as i understand it now, it was not within the powers of the president to do anything about changing the constitution.  that was what the supreme court ruling was about.  IF their military takes an oath, as we do, to protect and defend their constitution, they were doing their job.  if their supreme court is supposed to rule on constitutional issues, as our is (yes, really) they were doing their job.

  we don't take an oath to the president, or even the country.  we agree to follow orders, but they must be lawful orders.  that sends us back to the constitution and/or our officers, who do not swear to follow orders, only to protect the constitution smiley.    i don't know the wording of their oath, but ours is:

 I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.  .

officers: I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the ______ of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

 it's written that way for a reason.  i leaves us free to protect from those within, and without, who would destroy our foundation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 10:26:36 PM »

it will take a bit to sort out, but as i understand it now, it was not within the powers of the president to do anything about changing the constitution.  that was what the supreme court ruling was about. 

That may be exactly right. I'm just giving my own interpretation from what I read in the WSJ. What I wonder, though, is why they thought removal was necessary rather than just stopping him from carrying out an election, which sounds like it wasn't going to happen without cooperation from the military.  The entire thing seems a bit odd to me, and I'm thinking there is a big chunk of the story missing, either on my part, or on the part of the press and/or information coming out of Honduras.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 01:57:48 AM »

the problem with "supporting and defending" a constitution is that it can be changed "legally" to whatever end a particular power may want SO the support and defense maybe justified, demanded, legal, but ugly murky and subject to (nonsense) arguments about the legality of the action itself.
The worst of this is I take it as an assumption that sociopathic self important 'leaders' will seek a legal way to attack intrinsic rights to consolidate power.
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 10:06:17 AM »

Quote
self important 'leaders' will seek a legal way to attack intrinsic rights to consolidate power.

it's already  happening, isn't it.  a little czar, anyone???
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 02:56:59 PM »

the big picture depends on how much of a conspiracy theorist you are.  remember our conversation about the north american union, and i said that it couldn't happen without some radical changes in our constitution?  at the time, i didn't see how the people of the us and our congress would support such changes.  i can see it now.  i did not see a statist government happening in my lifetime, be we are fast getting there.  i did not see how a one world government could happen when there are (were) so many countries, especially ours, who valued independence and democracy.  i can see how it could happen now.
Wow, Kathy, it took you enough time, but I'm happy you're finally seeing how this is happening, and it is.  February 10, 2011.  Remember that date.

Quote
it is what it is, and maybe what it's supposed to be, but it is sad that we put ourselves here.  it would have been better to have been defeated in war, than to have given it all up.

and not backing what could have been the long awaited revolution in iran?

Franken makes 60.
Yep, the only hope we have now are the people wising up and letting the idiots know in no uncertain terms that they'll be voted out of office in 2010 - and then do it!  There's no hope for us here in MA, those two morons, Kerry and Kennedy, will be in office until they die - and no, I'm not wishing an early death to the senior senator, that'll take care of itself in due time.  But who will replace him?  Surely it'll be someone as 'blue' as he is  rolleyes


That may be exactly right. I'm just giving my own interpretation from what I read in the WSJ. What I wonder, though, is why they thought removal was necessary rather than just stopping him from carrying out an election, which sounds like it wasn't going to happen without cooperation from the military.  The entire thing seems a bit odd to me, and I'm thinking there is a big chunk of the story missing, either on my part, or on the part of the press and/or information coming out of Honduras.
What are you doing reading that right wing rag?  evil

Seriously, I think it's a matter of gathering up the info, piecing it together and then figuring out what happened.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 04:40:29 PM »

Yeah, I know. WSJ-  the right wing conspiracy theorist's bible. Wink

This story has been bugging the crap out of me since I started reading about it yesterday. Something doesn't add up, and I can't put my finger on it.

What the heck business is it of ours, or the UN's, to step in and make Honduras place a president back in? This story reeks and I can't figure out exactly why. I came across this piece on AIM (the real right wing rag grin) and thought you guys may be interested in it. I'll include an excerpt and a link.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/a-u.s.-u.n.-plot-against-anti-communist-honduras/

Quote
A "Tribute to the Heroes of Honduras" has been posted on the web and captures the true sentiments of the people of Honduras.
In the face of a media blackout, many Hondurans have contacted me through the new media. One said, "I want to warmly thank you for your article supporting the real issue of constitutional impeachment on Manuel Zelaya Rosales." Later, this person informed me that "There is a march supporting President Micheletti and you don't see that on the [U.S.] media, the manifestation of the people in favor of what our institutions did is by far bigger than the mobs protesting violently against Zelaya's ouster."
"Thanks for your support to the political situation in Honduras," another said. "Writers like yourself are what Hondurans needs to let the world know that what happened was an act to preserve the constitutional rights of the country."
Another wrote, "I read your article and it's exactly what happened. If you could read the blog http://hondurancoup.blogspot.com/ it contains details of what moved our military and the other two branches of our government to act as they did. I surely hope you could make this public and somehow justice will overcome procedure. What's important are the facts."
This blog, which tells "The true story behind the alleged coup," notes that "Former President Zelaya is sick for power, a true hypocrite, corrupt and the King of Misinformation. His plot to break the constitutional order and the rule of law in our country has led us into a profound social and political crisis, on which he has bet all of his success on the generation of hatred between classes. His actions have been marked by dividing and confusing Honduran people by adopting the style, advice and funding from left-wing leaders such as Hugo Chávez, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales, Rafael Correa and Daniel Ortega."
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johnnybigfish
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 08:03:40 PM »

Hmmmm....The BIG Picture???
Heres a BIG picture!
Oops....Thats my BIG HEAD grin !!

I'll work on the big picture thing later.

your friend,
john
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kathyp
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 08:16:14 PM »

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on which he has bet all of his success on the generation of hatred between classes. His actions have been marked by dividing and confusing Honduran people by adopting the style, advice and funding from left-wing leaders such as Hugo Chávez, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales, Rafael Correa and Daniel Ortega."

wow.  does that sound a little familiar?

reinbeau, at the time i wrote that, what you proposed was not possible.  it is now.  events have conspired to change my mind  grin

the UN is far left, primarily marxist with dashes of fascism thrown in.  no surprise where they stand.  our president is the same.  no surprise which side he supports.  look at the (lack) of stand he took on iran.  with the exception of carter, our presidents have supported freedom and the fight for freedom.  we have not always done it well.  sometimes we said the words, but did not back it up.  even so, the world was pretty confident about where our sympathies would stand.  they knew where our CIA would be lending it's support.  they knew who would get our money.  what are we to think now, and what is any group wishing to overthrow totalitarian governments to think?  twice, our president has supported repressive governments over the people.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
dragonfly
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 08:45:42 PM »

Quote
on which he has bet all of his success on the generation of hatred between classes. His actions have been marked by dividing and confusing Honduran people by adopting the style, advice and funding from left-wing leaders such as Hugo Chávez, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales, Rafael Correa and Daniel Ortega."

wow.  does that sound a little familiar?


Yes, very. That is what caught my attention in the piece.
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