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Author Topic: Queen from worker egg  (Read 3976 times)
Joelel
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« on: June 27, 2009, 07:19:21 PM »

Will a hive build and cap a queen cells from worker eggs ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
asprince
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 07:22:41 PM »

No. An egg from a laying worker is unfertilized.

Steve
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 07:29:41 PM »

No. An egg from a laying worker is unfertilized.

Steve

I know it will not make a queen but will they try and cap a queen cell ?
Or if it's caped it's a queen laid egg ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 07:57:33 PM »

I know it will not make a queen but will they try and cap a queen cell ?

Yes they will.
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 07:58:35 PM »

Under the right circumstances, "or should I say wrong" they will raise a queen drone. Just before the hive dies.
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 08:05:09 PM »

Thanks guys, I learned something new today.

Steve
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 08:19:56 PM »

Can the hive survive if we put a frame of brood and eggs from an other hive ? Is there anything we can do to save the hive ? Maybe introduce a new queen ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 08:25:27 PM »

If you keep adding fresh brood religiously,  the laying workers will subside and eventually they will raise a queen from the brood you provide.

Or a long term queen introduction is an option.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23359.msg180437.html#msg180437
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 08:47:52 PM by Robo » Logged

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Joelel
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2009, 08:30:40 PM »

If you keep adding fresh brood religiously,  the laying workers will subside and eventually they will raise a queen from the brood you provide.

Or you a long term queen introduction is an option.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23359.msg180437.html#msg180437


What is this ? Or you a long term queen introduction is an option.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
Joelel
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2009, 08:43:37 PM »

Under the right circumstances, "or should I say wrong" they will raise a queen drone. Just before the hive dies.

Will the hive survive with a queen drone or can a queen drone raise a hive ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 08:48:45 PM »

they will raise a queen drone. Just before the hive dies.
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Joelel
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 08:58:44 PM »

they will raise a queen drone. Just before the hive dies.

Will the hive survive with a queen drone or can a queen drone raise a hive ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
iddee
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2009, 09:05:05 PM »

Did you not read "just before a hive dies"

NO, a hive cannot live with a drone queen.

BOYS DON'T LAY EGGS.
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2009, 10:31:52 PM »

Queens are always raised from worker eggs, i.e. eggs that would otherwise become workers.  They may try to do otherwise, but it won't work.  Work eggs are fertilize.  To become a queen, they are fed royal jelly.  The optimum timing is 4 days after an egg is layed, the day it hatches.  Now, if you are talking about laying worker eggs, these are drone eggs, i.e. they hatch out to drones.
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2009, 12:05:44 AM »

Where do bees get royal jelly from to make queens ?
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 12:09:42 AM »

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23349.msg180341.html#msg180341

As I posted yesterday, I am splitting a two deep hive this weekend and putting in a new, purchased queen in a queen cage.  My plan is to take the box of bees to a new location probably Saturday then introduce the queen on Sunday.  After 24 hrs I'm hoping she will be accepted.  My question is, how long does it usually take the workers to eat through the candy plug?  Will it be enough time for them to be accepting or should I keep the candy covered for a few days?


INSTRUCTIONS FOR INTRODUCING QUEENS
You should have read one of the books on beekeeping that we list in our brochure. For those who have not, here are some brief instructions:

Make sure your hive is queenless. (Finding queens for requeening colonies is a subject for another set of instructions). You may install the new queen immediately after killing the old one but it is best to wait a day, or you may wait as long as four or five days. Remove the cork from the candy end of the queen mailing cage. If the candy is hard, make a small nail hole almost all the way through it. If the candy is soft, don't do anything with it. It is not necessary to remove the attendant bees from the queen cage, but some beekeepers believe it helps. If you have 10 frames in your hive you might have to remove one of the wall combs to be able to wedge the queen cage between two of the center combs with the screen on the cage exposed downward so the bees in your hive can communicate with the queen. The cage should be slanted with the candy end lower that the other end. The queen must be placed in the part of the hive where the bees are clustered. Close the hive and wait five to seven days before opening it. At that time the queen should be out of the cage, and she should have laid eggs in one or two of the combs. If she is not out of the cage, release her by taking the screen off, then check back in four or five days to see if she is laying.

If you know a method that works for you then use it.

Hives that have been queenless so long that all of the brood has hatched out, and hives that have developed laying workers do not accept new queens very well. Such hives should be given one or two combs with open brood in them from another hive if you have it available before you introduce the new queen.


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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 10:00:44 AM »

The bees produce royal jelly as they need it.  All larva get some, larva destined to be queens get it exclusively for the first four days.
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doak
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 10:19:19 AM »

Never heard of a "drone" queen.
If they have a laying worker they consider their selves queen right.
They will not exist long enough to decide to super cede the laying worker.
They art contently doomed.
Shouldn't be to hard to under stand.
you cannot make an apple out of an orange.

Take them about 100 yards from there location, take the frames out and shake the bees off onto the ground. Take the hive back to its location and add a caged queen no sooner than 24 hours.
Or take the colony and combine with another colony, using the news paper method.
There will be no queen fight because because there is only one queen.

You can keep adding frames of brood and eggs from another colony, a loose loose situation.
If they don't rear a queen from the first time, why keep going.

An unproductive colony is no good for the over all. :)doak
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 10:30:36 AM »

Quote
Or take the colony and combine with another colony, using the news paper method.

i have  heard not to do this.  that the laying workers will kill your queen in the queen-right hive?  seems shaking them would accomplish basically the same thing as they would join other hive/hives...??
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 11:25:10 AM »

Deciding what to do about the colony can be solved.

What cannot be solved is making a queen out of a worker "laid" egg.
The queen determines what the egg will be when it is laid.
No matter how much royal jelly it gets it is still a drone if it was a drone egg to begin with.
Royal Jelly doesn't change the "sex" of an egg. It only enhances the development of what is already there.

There has been no concrete evidence  that very many drones from laying workers
Can mate with a queen and produce viable off spring.
Even if the drone can successfully mate with a queen and she lays fertile and un fertile eggs,
Then it is not known what the workers will be like or if they reared a queen from these fertile eggs and it did produce a queen, it is not known what she would be like.

It might just be that any thing like this, if produced enough bees of both sexes could lead to the extinction of the honey bee, and we don't want that.

I think kathyp's suggestion would be the best approach, just shake them out and add the equipment to another colony.

I hope some one understands my point.
 :)doak
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Cheryl
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2009, 11:38:46 AM »

Good to see everyone playing nice.  grin

...OP would never want to instigate an argument...  evil

(Sorry guys, I'm extremely jaded.)
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 11:51:30 AM »

arguments can be instructive  smiley.  in this case, i think we are all on the same page more or less, but explain it a bit differently. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2009, 05:16:37 PM »

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#maleeggsinroyalcells
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#onlymaleeggs
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2009, 06:37:23 PM »

I may be jumping the gun because I have not finished reading the complete article.

I got far enough to realize It appears that he assumed an egg laid is an egg fertile.
He had not yet learned that the queen is capable of determining which she wants to drop into the cell.
We all know that an unmated queen can lay eggs, just like the unmated chicken/hen can.
Sorry but I'm not buying the fact that just because a few extra drops of pap were accidentally
dropped into the cell that it produced the laying workers.
didn't he know fertile eggs came from mating and wasn't created from pap.
When a colony becomes queen less and there isn't any eggs/larvae to feed, what then?
On another note, I have never heard of a colony developing laying workers in just a few days.
I left one queen less for 42 days once, the new queen I gave them was out of the cage in 3 days
and laying like a pro.
Guess I need to finish reading the article.
HuhHuhHuh?doak
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2009, 08:48:06 PM »

Doak, you need to read a lot of Joelel's posts. Some sound like a pro, others like a complete novice. He is just baiting for an argument. He joined just after Sgt. Major was banned.

Read between the lines.
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2009, 10:56:24 PM »

read a lot of Joelel's posts. Some sound like a pro, others like a complete novice. He is just baiting for an argument. He joined just after Sgt. Major was banned.

Read between the lines.
Yes. This is also what I was getting at, in a sideways manner.

edit: The links that Michael posted are from a very OLD publication by François Huber (1750-1831) published 1806 (Written 1787-1791).

I love reading the old stuff!  grin
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2009, 11:24:33 PM »

One of his first posts was that he and his son know a better way to do everything than the rest of all us beekeepers (as in he invented the screened inner cover) and he told another member to go ahead and ask him anything and he will tell him what to do yet he is asking all these questions like he knows absolutely nothing. Which is it?
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2009, 01:59:43 PM »

>I may be jumping the gun because I have not finished reading the complete article.
>I got far enough to realize It appears that he assumed an egg laid is an egg fertile.

In Hubers terminology (18th century translated from French to English) "fertile" simply means it's capable of developing.  The whole haploid, diploid thing was not mapped out until after DNA was discovered.  You did see that he wrote this in 1789?

>He had not yet learned that the queen is capable of determining which she wants to drop into the cell.

No one did until two hundred years later.

>We all know that an unmated queen can lay eggs, just like the unmated chicken/hen can.

Ahhh exactly.  And unfertilized chicken eggs don't develop.  But the unfertilized bee egg does.  The concept at that time was that a "fertile" egg was one that develops and an "unfertile" egg was one that does not.

>Sorry but I'm not buying the fact that just because a few extra drops of pap were accidentally
dropped into the cell that it produced the laying workers.

That's not his point.  His point is that WHEN a laying worker develops it's more likely one that was developing next to a queen cell.

>didn't he know fertile eggs came from mating and wasn't created from pap.

At the time Huber did his research many still thought the queen was a king and no one knew that the queen mated outside the hive, nor that a late mated queen would lay only drones.  Pretty much everything we now know about bees, he discovered with the exception of the DNA things that were much more recent.

>When a colony becomes queen less and there isn't any eggs/larvae to feed, what then?

Then workers develop ovaries as Huber proved.

>On another note, I have never heard of a colony developing laying workers in just a few days.

A broodless hive can develop laying workers in as short as 10 days.  Of course if you remove the queen there is still open brood for another 9 days or so so that stretches to 19 days or so of queenlessness.
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2009, 02:03:08 PM »

The observation that bees will build queen cells for drone eggs is a valid observation that I have made myself many times in laying worker mating nucs.  My point was that it has been observed and documented for the last 222 years.
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2009, 09:02:40 PM »

After all the differences on this thread  I think I'll stick with the bee school.


http://202.78.240.57/courses/beekeeping1.0/only_drone_brood.html
Only Drone Brood

When you inspect your hive, if you have only drone brood then you have a problem that must be fixed.  Drones do not do any work in the hive.  You need worker bees to care of the larvae and make the honey.   If your hive is not producing worker bees, then it will become weak quickly. The colony will die.

There are 2 possible reasons for having only drone brood in your hive:

1. Poor or Old Queen: Sometimes when your queen gets old she is no longer a good egg layer. Sometimes she has used all the sperm she got on her mating flight. Then she will only lay drone brood.

Sometimes a new queen will not get mated properly. She will not have enough sperm.  Again, this means she will only lay drone brood.  In both cases you need to re-queen your hive (topic 14) to solve this problem.

2. Laying Worker:  Sometimes, when a hive loses their queen one or more worker bees may begin to lay eggs.  This can cause a serious problem.  The eggs that a worker lays are not fertilised. The worker has not mated with drones.  She has no sperm.  She will lay only unfertilised eggs. Unfertilised eggs can only hatch into drone bees.  a hive full of drone bees will not do very well.  There will be no worker bees to do all of the work that is needed to keep the hive going.  After a while the hive will die out.  

 
When you go to your hive and see only drone brood, this is a sign that you may have a laying worker.  Another sign that a worker is laying eggs in your hive is if you see more than one egg in some of the cells.

This is a very difficult problem to fix. The bees think they have a queen. They will not accept a new one. There may be more than one laying worker in a hive.  If you could find and kill the laying worker(s) then you could introduce a new queen.  The laying worker does not look any different from a normal worker.  It is difficult to know which worker (s) is laying.  So unless you see her laying an egg, you will not be able to recognize which worker is trying to be queen.

Uniting the laying worker hive with a queen right hive over a sheet of newspaper sometimes works.  It is a bit risky.  The workers from the laying worker hive might throw out the real queen, instead of the laying worker.

Another way to fix this problem is to carry the hive about 20 or 30 meters away from its place and brush all of the bees out onto the ground.  Take the empty equipment and frames back to their spot and set them up again.  The laying worker(s) cannot fly and will not be able to get back to the hive.  The rest of the bees will return to the hive and then you can try to:

introduce a new queen or capped queen cell
<!--[if !supportLists]--> <!--[endif]-->unite it with a queen right hive
<!--[if !supportLists]--> <!--[endif]-->give the colony a frame of eggs and larva so bees can raise a new queen.


Also read here

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm



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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2009, 09:10:26 PM »

i'm a little confused about the point you are trying to make?

ok.  you have a laying worker hive.  what is your plan?  YOUR plan?  it's been a bit.  you probably should have executed it by now. 

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 Alexis de Tocqueville
Joelel
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2009, 09:15:44 PM »

i'm a little confused about the point you are trying to make?

ok.  you have a laying worker hive.  what is your plan?  YOUR plan?  it's been a bit.  you probably should have executed it by now. 



Shake the hive and introduce a queen.
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38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
BjornBee
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 09:25:41 PM »

I always combine. That old thing about shaking bees fails for me. Like a laying worker can not fly. Yeah right!  NOT!

If the queenright hive being combined with is not strong enough to protect the queen (like when adding two deep hive bodies full of drone laying workers and adding a nuc size colony....like you couldn't see that coming a mile away)), then protect her by caging the queen with a push-in cage where she can still lay and perform without being harmed. Her pheromones will quickly shut the laying workers down.

I've wasted half a summer in the past shaking bees, adding frames, etc. For me, laying worker colonies go on top of a queenright colony. Then you can break them back apart in a few weeks. Normally much less time then the beekeeper adding another frame of brood, or waiting for his second queen to arrive in the mail after the bees have killed the first queen after thinking laying workers will be left in the grass after shaking them.
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kathyp
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 09:26:49 PM »

shake the hive and let them return to the same hive and try to requeen?  my bet is that you'll lose the queen.  better to shake the hive and forget about it.  guess if you don't mind eating the 20 some dollars for a new queen, it's something to try.

Quote
then protect her by caging the queen with a push-in cage where she can still lay and perform without being harmed

that will work if you give it enough time.  that's where that requeening frame comes in.  if you shake the hive, you can't let them return to the same hive.  you have to let them join others.
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iddee
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 09:48:19 PM »

>>>>The laying worker(s) cannot fly and will not be able to get back to the hive.  <<<<

Please, Please, Please, Take a photo of the laying workers on the ground where you shake them out. I don't think I have ever seen a photo of laying workers, positively identified as such. The photos themselves should be quite valuable.

 evil    grin   grin    evil
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Jim 134
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2009, 09:55:15 PM »

Doak, you need to read a lot of Joelel's posts. Some sound like a pro, others like a complete novice. He is just baiting for an argument. He joined just after Sgt. Major was banned.

Read between the lines.


Doak ...


     Joelel's 82 posts in 11 day Huh Huh

        BEE HAPPY Jim 134  Smiley
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BjornBee
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2009, 10:17:00 PM »

82.... huh

I had 117.... grin

Amateurs!
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 09:35:48 PM »

Yelp sure enough,We shook the hive,3 days later on 7/2 introduced a queen,9/5 pulled the plug and 2 days later she was out laying and had a half a frame laid.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
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