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Author Topic: Reuniting bees from the same hive?  (Read 3108 times)

Offline Hethen57

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Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« on: June 24, 2009, 12:54:28 PM »
If you take some frames of brood to make a split or you create a cell starter hive and then need to reunite those bees with their original colony for some reason after a few days...do you still need to follow the newspaper method to reunite them with their original colony?  Is there a certain length of time within which the old bees will just accept them as their own?  Just wondering because I need to make some nucs for some queens that are scheduled to arrive tomorrow, and if a queen didn't survive shipping or whatever, wanted to know if I could just put the frames of bees and brood back into the original colony without a bunch of fighting.  Thanks.
-Mike
-Mike

Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 12:55:46 PM »
if you are moving frames of brood and nurse bees, there should be no problem.  if you are combining a whole hive,  use newspaper.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Joelel

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 02:49:10 PM »
If you take some frames of brood to make a split or you create a cell starter hive and then need to reunite those bees with their original colony for some reason after a few days...do you still need to follow the newspaper method to reunite them with their original colony?  Is there a certain length of time within which the old bees will just accept them as their own?  Just wondering because I need to make some nucs for some queens that are scheduled to arrive tomorrow, and if a queen didn't survive shipping or whatever, wanted to know if I could just put the frames of bees and brood back into the original colony without a bunch of fighting.  Thanks.
-Mike

Why would you want to unite them ? You will lose your split.You can't unite after they have a queen.
Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 03:21:26 PM »
For approx. 72 hours, you can just put them back. After that, they are strangers. They have forgotten their mates.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Hethen57

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 03:33:46 PM »
Thanks Iddee, that was the timeframe I was looking for.  I figured within some time window they would still identify with eachother, but makes sense that after a few days they would take on their own identity. 

Joelel - I'm talking bees in a queenless condition, that have been separated from a hive without the queen and you didn't introduce one (for whatever reason...you wanted them queenless for a cell starter, you wind up short a queen, or queen cell for your splits...whatever).
-Mike

Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 03:55:48 PM »
iddee, are you talking about that time frame for nurse bees and brood?  i have never had a problem with nurse bees if i am swapping the whole frame....now shaking in a frame of bees that are not on brood can be a different story!
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 07:53:39 PM »
Kathy, the time of year and condition of bees are more of a consideration than time, but I couldn't spend 30 minutes explaining all the different aspects, so I went the safe route. A frame of house bees and queen can usually be added to a queenless hive within 3 days of going queenless, without caging the queen, during the flow.  Don't try it during a dearth, tho.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 07:56:58 PM »
thanks.  wasn't questioning your answer.  starting to question my technique!  you are in the master category, so i would defer to your advice every time.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 09:51:06 PM »
I have questioned even the masters at times. No one is perfect.
As you know, the bees never read the rule book, so they do just the opposite.

Or another way to look at it. When they act different ways every time the weather changes, different beeks see different actions. The problem arises when the beek thinks they will do the same every time.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Joelel

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 11:07:44 PM »
Thanks Iddee, that was the timeframe I was looking for.  I figured within some time window they would still identify with eachother, but makes sense that after a few days they would take on their own identity. 

Joelel - I'm talking bees in a queenless condition, that have been separated from a hive without the queen and you didn't introduce one (for whatever reason...you wanted them queenless for a cell starter, you wind up short a queen, or queen cell for your splits...whatever).
 

Take some and put them at the entrance of the other,see if they get attacked,if not they will reunite.
Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 01:23:02 AM »
Thanks Iddee, that was the timeframe I was looking for.  I figured within some time window they would still identify with eachother, but makes sense that after a few days they would take on their own identity. 

Joelel - I'm talking bees in a queenless condition, that have been separated from a hive without the queen and you didn't introduce one (for whatever reason...you wanted them queenless for a cell starter, you wind up short a queen, or queen cell for your splits...whatever).
 

Take some and put them at the entrance of the other,see if they get attacked,if not they will reunite.

Bees, if separated for a few days, even if from the same hive originally can fight when combined with Joelel's suggestion is impractical.   2-3 days i enough time for a difference to be detected by the bees and bees coming from outside the hive will most probably be attached as being robbers.

Entire frames of bees can often be successfully placed into another since bees on frames belong inside a hive.  Placing a brood frame into a hive, in the case of suspected queenlessness, is done frequently and doesn't endanger the nurse bees on the brood frame.  Mixing frames of brood and bees from different hives makes a great way  to create a strong split without weakening the donor hives and the mixing can be done with out a formal combine.  In the case of a known queenless hive, it can be re-queened by taking a frame of brood, nurse bees, and a queen and inserting in into a hive if done within 2-3 days of the hive going queenless.
The tie breaker here is the 2-3 day time period for the odor difference to be a factor or the number of frames being joined.  A single frame to a hive can happen anytime, if needed, but within 2-3 days if a queen is involved, because of the time depletion of pheromones.  When doing splits by mixing frames from multiple hives it is necessary to tap frames from at least 3 donor hives.
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Offline Joelel

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 01:40:55 AM »
Thanks Iddee, that was the timeframe I was looking for.  I figured within some time window they would still identify with eachother, but makes sense that after a few days they would take on their own identity.  

Joelel - I'm talking bees in a queenless condition, that have been separated from a hive without the queen and you didn't introduce one (for whatever reason...you wanted them queenless for a cell starter, you wind up short a queen, or queen cell for your splits...whatever).
 

Take some and put them at the entrance of the other,see if they get attacked,if not they will reunite.

Bees, if separated for a few days, even if from the same hive originally can fight when combined with Joelel's suggestion is impractical.   2-3 days i enough time for a difference to be detected by the bees and bees coming from outside the hive will most probably be attached as being robbers.

Entire frames of bees can often be successfully placed into another since bees on frames belong inside a hive.  Placing a brood frame into a hive, in the case of suspected queenlessness, is done frequently and doesn't endanger the nurse bees on the brood frame.  Mixing frames of brood and bees from different hives makes a great way  to create a strong split without weakening the donor hives and the mixing can be done with out a formal combine.  In the case of a known queenless hive, it can be re-queened by taking a frame of brood, nurse bees, and a queen and inserting in into a hive if done within 2-3 days of the hive going queenless.
The tie breaker here is the 2-3 day time period for the odor difference to be a factor or the number of frames being joined.  a single frame to a hive can happen anytime, if needed, but within 2-3 days if a queen is involved, because of the time depletion of pheromones.  When doing splits by mixing frames from multiple hives it is necessary to tap frames from at least 3 donor hives.

So your saying they will reunite even if they kill each other,dead bees unite ?  :? :shock:
Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 09:41:33 AM »
no, what he and i were saying is that frames of nurse bees can be combined, or introduced into hives with little risk of fighting.  frames of nurse bees from multiple hive can be combined to create nucs.

we do it all the time when trying to boost numbers in hive, or figuring out if a hive is queenless. 

the question above was about reintroducing a frame of nurse bees and brood.  it should not be a problem. not to say that there will not be some squabbling, but there will not be a massacre.   where you see fighting and problems is when you shake workers into a hive to boost numbers. even so, they usually work it out.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 10:43:11 AM »
Kathy, what you are saying is true, but not relevant to the op. He is talking about bees that have been in a nuc for 24 or more hours. By then, they have converted individuals to guards and foragers. They are no longer all nurse bees. There will be fighting unless they remember their house mates. That usually ceases after approx. 3 days.

Two different subjects here.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 11:07:48 AM »
Quote
need to make some nucs for some queens that are scheduled to arrive tomorrow, and if a queen didn't survive shipping or whatever, wanted to know if I could just put the frames of bees and brood back into the original colony without a bunch of fighting.  Thanks.

Quote
He is talking about bees that have been in a nuc for 24 or more hours. By then, they have converted individuals to guards and foragers. They are no longer all nurse bees

'tis true what you say.....there might be a bit of a dust up, but having done the same, i would do it again rather than waste brood.  my casualties were few.  i just hate seeing a good frame of brood go to waste  :'(.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 11:33:48 AM »
No need to waste anything. A simple sheet of newspaper will resolve all doubt.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Joelel

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 08:49:06 PM »
no, what he and i were saying is that frames of nurse bees can be combined, or introduced into hives with little risk of fighting.  frames of nurse bees from multiple hive can be combined to create nucs.

we do it all the time when trying to boost numbers in hive, or figuring out if a hive is queenless. 

the question above was about reintroducing a frame of nurse bees and brood.  it should not be a problem. not to say that there will not be some squabbling, but there will not be a massacre.   where you see fighting and problems is when you shake workers into a hive to boost numbers. even so, they usually work it out.

I understand what you two are saying but what I'm saying to start with is, take some and put them at the entrance of the other hive and if they fight and kill them, then they will kill the others if you put the rest back on the frames.
Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation

Offline iddee

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 11:32:34 PM »
Joelel says it's 9.
Iddee says no, it's 6+3.
Kathyp says no, it's 3+3+3.
 :-P     :-D

And the bees say....HA! HA!   We will do differently this time, just for spite, and make it 8.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online kathyp

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2009, 12:09:29 AM »
2+2+2+2

do what moves you.  let us know how it works out  :-D
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Hethen57

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Re: Reuniting bees from the same hive?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2009, 01:27:39 AM »
Hopefully, this was just a hypothetical question, because I just queened both of the nucs and hopefully they twill take.  On the topic of mixing bees, I didn't have the heart to just release the attendants to die (they were very young and cool looking bees), so I sprayed them with syrup and released them on the top of the frames.  They took some minor scrutiny from the guards, but smelled like a candy store so they were allowed to pass.  They then scurried into the brood nest, so hopefully they got to work and blended in  :-D.  I had to at least give them a chance at a home after taking such good care of my queens on their trip up from Southern Oregon.
-Mike