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Author Topic: Are honey bees protected by law  (Read 22175 times)
Scadsobees
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 12:36:00 PM »

Actually in the right area, honey bee removals can pay off. 

The bees don't care, most of the time they'll end up with a new queen and new genetics anyway, therefore basically a whole new hive.  Sortof like saving a wild chicken to incubate an egg.

You're welcome to start that up in my area...I get lots of calls for removal, people offering me free bees (bargain!!), etc.  I've found no other beekeeper in a 100 mile radius that have any desire to do so either (I wonder why??  rolleyes) I don't have the desire nor time to drive for hours and then spend more hours in sweaty bee gear but very occasionally doing cutouts for hives that may or may not make it.  And most people would rather spend $80 on an exterminator than spend $200 on some guy who will rip open their walls for a free bee hive.  That's fine with me.

I find splits to work very wonderfully.

Now killing swarms...I do have a bit more of a problem with that.
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 01:13:39 PM »

there are only 2 in my area.  i do the outbuildings for free and avoid the homes.  my agreement with the owners is that i'll do the removal and cleanup, but they do the repairs.  seems to work.  i enjoy it and the bees are saved.

can't do them at this time of the year and save the bees, so if they want the bees gone, they have to find someone else or call an exterminator.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »

 ninja
                    
                   I also  own a rental but it is a single family dwelling and does not generate the income of 400 + units. It, could also be  that the rental market in "boring old Oregon" is not What it is, in the "University District" , of New Orleans the hub of southern learning and culture, as well as, one of the nation' s oldest cities. Maybe you travel TOO little.
                   I have an extensive history in construction and am an expert at demolition "They call me Termight " and can not picture the circumstances you refer to. Even after spending the past two years, disecting giant chopped up hundred year old mansions with plaster walls slate roofs terra cotta drains and cloth insulated wires. Maybe you need to take on a carpenter, and expand your services to include replacement, of areas demoed for hive removal.    
                   As far as the $ 200 bit, as I said before protective legislation would drive up cost to probably triple $600, make spraying unlawful, and punishable by fine,  and then replacement could add another $400 easily, bringing the total up to a nice round figure of a thousand dollars. Then considering the infrequency with which colonizations of dwellings occur on a case by case basis that figure could then be  passed neatly onto the Homeowner' s Insurance provider. I fail to see the problem. other than obstinance and fear of change.  
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Irwin
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2009, 02:01:58 PM »

Why don't you run for a seat in Congress and get started on this Bee Excellent
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2009, 02:29:17 PM »

 soapbox
                    Maybe if this page gets enough traffic I will. On a save the bees and pro legalization platform.
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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »

sweet heart, maybe you can't picture the circumstances because you don't have enough experience with bees yet.  perhaps a little time in cold winter climates with bees would enlighten you.  talk to me again when you have done a few cutouts and know what it takes to remove, hive, and save those bees.

just what we need.  more laws to tell people what they should and shouldn't do with their own property  rolleyes
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Scadsobees
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« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2009, 07:13:49 PM »

Sorry, laws that drive costs are the same ones that fueled tea parties in the past and the present.

But if there was any time to pass horrible legislation that will cost people a lot of money, nows the time!! Nobody would notice one little stinker among all of the big stinkers. grin

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Rick
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2009, 08:25:11 PM »

 Scadsobees  is correct in saying,   Nobody would notice one little stinker among all of the big stinkers. I believe at this point we should see if the Clydesdale's are not to busy since they are not working on any super bowl commercials and pull the honey wagon to spread the solids. We have past the stinkers portion.
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bee-nuts
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 01:05:29 AM »

I love this forum!!!   I have no time left now after my job, playing with my bees, and tending to my and others posts on this forum to spent any time the bar getting intoxicated or wasting money on foolish things I don't need.

Of course we need laws to protect wildlife and nature.  Yes we need to control the use of large scale use of pesticides that can affect everything around us.  What we don't need is laws that are a bigger pest than the pests they will protect.  Most people will leave alone something that leaves them alone.  A wasp nest under the garage eave or a junk pile usually gets left alone.  A wasp nest neat your house door or where your children play will get your attention when you get stung and I'm sorry to say will have to die.  Most people will make rational decisions.  Idiots will make idiotic laws.  Unfortunately while the rational people are to busy making a living the idiots are making laws that make us work longer hours to fund and have less time to pay attention to the next law the idiots pass.  I am so sick of the governments continual invasion of peoples rights.  Will there be anything on earth that does not have a law attached to it before my passing?  Good God help us all!!
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2009, 01:31:32 PM »

Bee Excellent:

Only 7 posts and you are irritating many of us - interesting approach to joining a forum, hope to see lines like "Boring old Oregon" disappear from your vocabulary by your next post. We DO NOT instigate arguments with other members here, and thinking that New Orleans as a major housing hub in any economy is laughable - most of us thought the best thing after Katrina was to destroy any sign of man-made structures and turn the whole thing into a national wildlife reserve or swampland national park. So don't try baiting others here by twisting the names of where they are from.

Also, you use unnecessary words we allow through the word filter, but they do nothing to improve or justify their usage here, keep it family friendly. You love to write long-winded posts, I'm happy for you - but I hope to "not see" anything resembling personal attacks used to start an argument, you don't have a dog in that fight with most of the members here, especially one from "Boring" Oregon, she'll mop the floor with you, so think twice and type once here.

Watch yourself, I like passionate members, but not ones who make it a point to place zingers in every post they do here. And yes, I do like to admonish new members in public, that way when they disappear because of their actions - the membership already knows why and no followup message is required. Plus it gets the attention of other new members who haven't taken the time to read the bilaws, it is a win win scenario.

If you need to move on to other topics to curb your "enthusiasm" then you might want to call this topic quits, there are lost of forums and thousands of topics - find some that wind you up so much.

Lastly, just keep your posts a lot less pointed and everything will be fine, but I highly suggest you read the BILAWS of the forum at http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,19652.0.html and if you have any questions after that, I'll gladly show you the door.
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Bee Excellent
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2009, 11:02:59 AM »

 jail               There I go again, " forgetting my place ", I must be coming down with the " Old-Timers ". I forgot this is, The United States of America, and we're all supposed to be, fat, lazy, stupid, complacently sedated, and over-medicated, but never poignant, objectionable, or passionate.
                      In reference to New Orleans, I never claimed it was a housing hub, but rather a cultural, and educational one. The geography of the city prevents it from becoming a major sprawling housing center, like Dallas. This creates an inflated market, especially in the University District, which was the point, I was originally trying to make. I understand, there is some swampland, near Jersey, as well. Then of course, being on the eastern seaboard, they also are a possible target, for hurricane driven flooding. I for one, am of the mind, that the loss of New Jersey, would be a significantly smaller blow to humanity than would be the loss of New Orleans.
                      As for language, I will concede, I had not initially considered, the attraction, that a bee forum, would hold for children. As I am writing this reply, I am certainly not opposed, to ruffling the feathers, of other members, or the administration. " So what's new ?". I am actually quite proud, to have drawn a reprimand, so quickly. If you can' t take the heat, the kitchen door is yours, feel free, to throw me out of it. I would speculate ; that there are millions of forums with infinitely more topics, but to suggest I waste my time posting on things I care little or nothing about is absurd.   
                      Which brings me back to topic, and the reason I came back to this page. I had a final thought on the subject. If we are, as a society, going to have a list of endangered species, under protection of law. Speculating that we could emerge, collectively, from our individual, self inflicted, drug induced, stupors, long enough to put the honey bee, on that list. The Honey Bee, would then become, the only member of that list, on which, the survival of almost every other member, would depend. Without Honey Bees, the endangered species list would soon be nothing more than a forgotten relic.
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2009, 11:12:59 AM »

if you are going to try to "ruffle feathers" it's good to have a logical argument.  yours is not, can not be logically extrapolated, and.....your punctuation needs work.

i, too, like to ruffle feathers with the goal of having a logical, thoughtful, discussion.  if you do it just to do it, it's kind of childish.  when you deflect the conversation with ad hominem  attacks, you make folks wonder if you can not defend your arguments on the merits.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2009, 11:48:02 AM »

Bee Excellent, Maybe, I, can, write, this, in, your, language,.

Nope, just too much trouble trying to hit all those commas.

As for New Orleans, I guess there needs to be garbage dumps every where, but that one needs to be closed and filled in. It is past it's usefulness.

As for laws protecting honeybees, teaching the populace about them would likely make much more sense.
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2009, 04:34:46 PM »

it seems to me that education is typically a far better tool than legislation any day.

Big Bear
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2009, 06:41:54 PM »

                        thunder

                      How can one be an expert and a fool at once?

...They're collectively called 'congress'
(I suspect that they are protected by evolution and proliferation)
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2009, 06:31:49 AM »

I would be against any legislation protecting bees, as well.  Knowing Congress, they would include a ban on "removing or otherwise disturbing honey bees" or some other such nonsense, without the necessary federal permits ($$$).

I have also found that most people in my area are well aware of the plight of the honey bee.  I have received many phone calls this past year asking my to come and check on whether the "bees" they have are honey bees and, if so, how can we save them.  (Unfortunately, they have been yellow jackets or bald-faced hornets.)  I would say that education is the key.
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BjornBee
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2009, 07:13:39 AM »

I think JP probably got it right for what happens around there, in regards to left behind honey, etc.

Most exterminators have learned that spraying the hole of a honey bee colony in a home and then plugging the hole, usually amounts to a limited kill, a left behind situation of perhaps rotting bees left in the wall, hundreds of pounds of honey to attract ants, termites and every other insect for years to come doing massive damage to the homes interior structure, and many times a situation where they are called to come back and followup many times for a half completed job, after the bees eat through the puddy or found another entry point.

They understand that killing off the entire colony (To which I think they have no problem, if not for the hassles) means more than the cosmetic application of chemicals they use for other insect problems. They do not not want to deal with opening up a wall, removing an established colony, and the potential hassles and time that come with such a job.

Around here, you mention honey bees in a wall, and most exterminators run the other way. And that is what I prefer. I had past calls from ticked off families who paid someone to spray in a hole, plug the hole, and then collect a huge check. Then when they find out what was left behind, what potential damage they could be looking at, and what should of been done, and what it will cost for me to do the job correctly.....they are not too happy when they call that exterminator company back.

I don't think it is a law around here, but exterminators also know that it is not something they want to mess with anymore. So they spread this "I can not kill honey bees! You need to call a beekeeper."

And that suits me fine.... grin

Now if we can actually get all beekeepers to realize the value of the service they provide, and not be bashful in actually charging for this service. Most beekeepers are not business people. And many have a hesitation in quoting, collecting, and asking for what is fair. They want to help people, and for some it just comes as stressful to get into a "salesman" mode of completing a "contract" for services, even if it is just asking to be paid for the job. They do a couple for free, don't like making little old ladies pay for it, then just come to the conclusion that it is easier to not take removal jobs.

I belong to two local clubs. And I bet out of both clubs (150 members each) there isn't more than two people willing to do an extraction.

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Keith13
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2009, 08:16:39 AM »

ninja
                    
                   I also  own a rental but it is a single family dwelling and does not generate the income of 400 + units. It, could also be  that the rental market in "boring old Oregon" is not What it is, in the "University District" , of New Orleans the hub of southern learning and culture, as well as, one of the nation' s oldest cities. Maybe you travel TOO little.
                   I have an extensive history in construction and am an expert at demolition "They call me Termight " and can not picture the circumstances you refer to. Even after spending the past two years, disecting giant chopped up hundred year old mansions with plaster walls slate roofs terra cotta drains and cloth insulated wires. Maybe you need to take on a carpenter, and expand your services to include replacement, of areas demoed for hive removal.    
                   As far as the $ 200 bit, as I said before protective legislation would drive up cost to probably triple $600, make spraying unlawful, and punishable by fine,  and then replacement could add another $400 easily, bringing the total up to a nice round figure of a thousand dollars. Then considering the infrequency with which colonizations of dwellings occur on a case by case basis that figure could then be  passed neatly onto the Homeowner' s Insurance provider. I fail to see the problem. other than obstinance and fear of change.  

Why create laws to drive up cost? We should change the way people think of bees.
By creating a law you make people have to do something.
By changing the way people think you make people want to do something

running the price up for bee removal is ubsurd and now we want a law requiring it? what about the poor lady with a fixed income now by law she has to pay a guy a 1000 bucks to remove a hive, when before she may have chosen to have them removed for 200 or less. Sorry I hate making a law to have a law to make people feel good.

spread the word of the benefits of bees and keep the govt. out of it.

Keith
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bigbearomaha
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2009, 09:55:57 AM »

It's not just about being too shy to charge money for the service.  Money collected for honey bee removal is taxable income and could be construed as a business if the state, etc.. decides you make enough money doing it.  Many beekeepers don't have businesses set up to tie related earnings from bee removals to.

If you want to charge money and not report it, that's up to you.   I have the worlds worst luck, it's as if legal people are just waiting somewhere behind me. waiting for me to slip up.

I tell people wanting to remove bees from a wall to hire a handyman or carpenter. I will be there to collect the bees, remove the comb, etc.., but I will not handle the "wall work"  that's how people get sued in these crazy times.

Besides, I feel it helps create or build a sense of community to be able to help someone with these and not charge them.  We each got something out of it, I the bees and they the bees removed.  The bees get a (hopefully) better home in the end. We all win. and hopefully, through the process and a casual attitude, everybody has a bit of fun too.

But, everyone has their own way and no one way is the only way to do it.

Big Bear


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BjornBee
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2009, 10:39:40 AM »

bigbear,
I agree to a point.

Around here, we have many of the "Help thy neighbor" types. And I'm not against that. The problem is this....

That message is "suggested" at bee meetings to new beekeepers, that it is in the best interest of the bee "community" to do this as a public service.

That message is relayed and repeated to the community, that beekeepers will spend an entire Saturday Afternoon, because we are all nature loving bee saving folks that do it for the bees sake, and thus are rewarded with a bee colony, and do it with a smile.

Then this translates into reality.....

New beekeepers do it once and say that was enough for me.

Old timers don't do it because they are....old!

Nobody wants to do it....if the colony is behind the chimney, under the overhang on the second floor balcony, etc. But lets just not list bad situation. Most won't do anything beyond a four foot high swarm from a tree along the road....  Wink

So what we are left with is this....

Exterminators not wanting the job.
Beekeepers not wanting the extraction job.
And the public left scratching their heads.

I hear the same thing dozens of times each year from homeowners. "I called the local bee club...I called the list they gave me....Nobody will come out to help "save these bees".....I thought beekeepers did this for free.....I don't know what to do!"

Everyone wants free swarms. Nobody wants to do this for free when it comes to an extraction.

And I'll state for all new beekeepers who read this.......Charge. Once word is out that you are the last resort and WILLING to actually move your butt and provide the service of extractions....your phone will be ringing of the hook.

I do not see this "It helps to create a sense of community" when the homeowner called 12 beekeepers on the supposed "swarm list" of the local club, and NOBODY is willing to help. Which is what happens for the most part, after the beekeepers asks several questions of the homeowner and it is found out that the bees are in the brick wall, second floor up.

Of course I have insurance and actually run a business. But too bad the "business" is oftentimes having to deal with perceptions, initial "free quotes" from beekeepers who never had the intention of even doing the job, and a homeowner that is at their ends wits over the matter.

I talk with many beekeepers off the forums about these situations. Some will not go on a forum and discuss such topics and dealings. But the one thing they all say in private is they charge.....they charge a good price....and they are BUSY!

I wish some of the "We should do it free" crowd lived closer to me. I actually have jobs I really don't want, yet have nobody to pass them off too... grin

It is a shame about taxes and reporting , etc.

And so nobody thinks I'm blowing smoke.....I list fees right on my website. For extractions and swarms. And I get calls all the time.
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