Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
July 30, 2014, 10:31:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: 24/7 Ventrilo Voice chat -click for instructions and free software here
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Splitting by making them swarm  (Read 1676 times)
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« on: June 15, 2009, 11:24:48 PM »

...

Once the bees have decided to swarm the best solution is to split the hive taking the queen away from the original location (even if it's only a few feet away) and letting the queen cells hatch a new queen. 
You can either then recombine the two or build up 2 hives, which is the better.  2 hives gives you resources or saving 1 or both hives that you don't have with only one hive.

I have a package that is just about to fill the second 8 frame medium - full of brood in all stages, and I am thinking about provoking them to build swarm cells by continuing to feed and not giving them any more room at that point - and then moving the old queen to a nuc to head off the swarm. 

How risky would this be?  How often would I need to inspect to be sure and find the swarm cells in time to move the queen?  Should I wait until they fill another box - or two?  If I do wait then the inspections will get longer and more invasive as the colony gets bigger.

The idea is that swarm cells will make the best queen.

I would really like to have 2 hives going before winter.  So far our weather is pretty stellar - plenty of rain and plenty of sunshine.  Flowers everywhere.  If the rain fails (it often does) I'm willing to feed from now till fall if I have to - our first freeze is usually after Halloween.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15031


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 11:43:27 PM »

rather than take the chance, why not just split them now?  will both be able to build up before winter?
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 11:55:22 PM »

rather than take the chance, why not just split them now?  will both be able to build up before winter?


Here's why I'm considering this - Robo's article - Can You Afford Emergency Queens?

Will they build up?  It depends on the rain - last year we had drought - so far this year is wet - even when it's dry you can sweep pollen into piles on the patio in late summer.  If they don't build up I could do a combine later.  I would surely end up with more bees with 2 queens laying.

My main question is how likely am I to pull if it off without causing an actual swarm.

I was just kidding about the UFOs.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
sc-bee
Super Bee
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1874


Location: Edgefield, SC


« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 12:14:05 AM »

>My main question is how likely am I to pull if it off without causing an actual swarm.

I think very likely. However sometimes when they go in a swarm mode they just gonna swarm.

Folks often raise queens using a method similar to what you are speaking. Feed a very populous hive (or hive intentionally crowded) for about a week to make sure the bees are feed and therefore feed the new larvae good (the well feed larvae is what you need). Remove the queen by making a nuc or banking her with a couple frames. The queenless parent hive will build queen cells. After four days inspect and remove all capped queen cells. This gets rid of the cells started with larvae too old and not fed well. Don't turn frames upside down and drown the other larvae in cells not closed.

After the other cells are capped ---- split into the number of good splits you can make or mating nucs for queens. Of course this is all dependent on the number of drones you have @ the time.

 
Logged

John 3:16
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 12:28:10 AM »

>My main question is how likely am I to pull if it off without causing an actual swarm.

I think very likely. However sometimes when they go in a swarm mode they just gonna swarm.

Folks often raise queens using a method similar to what you are speaking. Feed a very populous hive (or hive intentionally crowded) for about a week to make sure the bees are feed and therefore feed the new larvae good (the well feed larvae is what you need). Remove the queen by making a nuc or banking her with a couple frames. The queenless parent hive will build queen cells. After four days inspect and remove all capped queen cells. This gets rid of the cells started with larvae too old and not fed well. Don't turn frames upside down and drown the other larvae in cells not closed.

After the other cells are capped ---- split into the number of good splits you can make or mating nucs for queens. Of course this is all dependent on the number of drones you have @ the time.

 


Thanks - That is very helpful.  After only 4 days any capped cells would have been at least 4 days old when the queen was removed.  That sounds a lot safer.  One question - why 4 days and not 6?  Then the remaining cells would have been 2 days old or less when the queen was removed. 

Anyway, it sounds less risky - especially if I couldn't find the queen in a hive that was already moving to swarm.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15031


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 12:42:24 AM »

oops.  didn't know you only wanted answers that supported what you'd already decided to do.  please let us know how it all turns out.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »

oops.  didn't know you only wanted answers that supported what you'd already decided to do.  please let us know how it all turns out.

Well, that's usually the only kind that anyone ever wants.  Isn't it.

Did you give an answer? 
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15031


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 12:51:30 AM »

Quote
Well, that's usually the only kind that anyone ever wants.  Isn't it.

i wouldn't think so if you really wanted honest answers.  guess mine was more of a question about other options. the reason i asked about other options is that if you force them into swarm mode, you may not be able to control what happens.  even if you are really on top of things and have the experience to catch them in time, it may not be enough. 

up to you.  as i said, let us know how it turns out.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 01:30:47 AM »

Quote
Well, that's usually the only kind that anyone ever wants.  Isn't it.

i wouldn't think so if you really wanted honest answers.  guess mine was more of a question about other options. the reason i asked about other options is that if you force them into swarm mode, you may not be able to control what happens.  even if you are really on top of things and have the experience to catch them in time, it may not be enough. 

up to you.  as i said, let us know how it turns out.

That's actually pretty helpful as well - I do not have the experience.  I don't have any experience.  That's why I asked the question - I am exploring options.  My mind is not made up.  What SC-Bee proposed is not the same thing that I asked about, but an alternative.

When people ask for advice they usually are hoping that it will just be what they want to hear, but in this case it actually isn't.  I'm not sure why you would think that.

But I will let you know what I do and how it works out.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
RayMarler
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 501


Location: Marysville, CA


« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 05:01:51 AM »

Feed them till you get swarm cells. Then find the queen and a frame or two of sealed brood, and a frame or two of nectar, the rest as foundation to fill the box. leave this in place and move everything else in their own  box away. This removes all frames with swarm cells away. They lose all the field bees back to the original location. No field bees means no swarming most of the time. It'll requeen. The hive you left in place has the queen, no open brood little sealed brood, and all the field bees. This box will  build back up as the swarm cell box in it's new location makes you a new queen.
Logged

Sitting in the shade, drinking lemon aid.
Enjoying the breeze while counting the bees.
sc-bee
Super Bee
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1874


Location: Edgefield, SC


« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 08:30:10 AM »

>They lose all the field bees back to the original location. No field bees means no swarming most of the time. It'll requeen. The hive you left in place has the queen, no open brood little sealed brood, and all the field bees. This box will  build back up as the swarm cell box in it's new location makes you a new queen.

Very interesting concept Ray. Always hear about moving the queen away. I like this.

>oops.  didn't know you only wanted answers that supported what you'd already decided to do.

Ouch grin Wink
Yes put them in a swarm mode and sometimes they gonna swarm.

>One question - why 4 days and not 6?  Then the remaining cells would have been 2 days old or less when the queen was removed.

An egg hatches in 3-31/2 days. A good queen is started with well feed larvae in about 24 hours. If the cell is capped in four days the larvae may not be properly nourished (they chose an older larvae).

This is the problem with walk away splits versus swarm cell etc. Walk away splits or taking the queen as I said above is basically forcing emergency cells. By removing the capped cells @ 4 days you assure the better queen cell and not one started on an older larvae.

Swarm cells should have been started with the right age larvae. Because they did it by choice. So as Ray said above feed to force queen cells above or to save time feed heavy for a week and condense hive remove queen. This will force emergency cells. Take capped ones out in four days and leave remaining. This method is more intensive than rays but lets you know how old the queen cell is.

 Timing is critical in both methods. Remember they may swarm at any time after a cell is capped.

Then split as you need.

 I like the idea of leaving the small box (notice frame or two) with the queen to pick up the foragers. Key there, leave queen with capped brood. They look for a pheromone change and leaving queen with open brood they may pull cells and swarm anyway.

Yes and back to Kathy --- probably too much info. Thought he would like to know some folks raise queens this way.

I will state upfront David so you know--- I am still a Novice learning. Don't have all the bee math etc. in my head. So take my post for what it is worth.

More info for others to comment on and you to ask questions about grin!
Logged

John 3:16
iddee
Galactic Bee
******
Online Online

Gender: Male
Posts: 5911

Location: Randleman, NC


« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 08:52:44 AM »

My question is...What about the second, third, and maybe fourth swarm?
Once you induce the swarm mode, what is going to stop it?

My opinion is... There are better ways.
Logged

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15031


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 09:25:49 AM »

perhaps i was PMSing and took this
Quote
Thanks - That is very helpful
  the wrong way.

sorry.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Irwin
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2343


Location: Lakeside OR

howdy all


« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 09:33:14 AM »

rather than take the chance, why not just split them now?  will both be able to build up before winter?
I agree with Kathy do a split just divide up what you got and buy a Queen allot less risk of swarming.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 10:03:33 AM by Irwin » Logged

Fight organized crime!  Re-elect no one.
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 09:34:08 AM »

perhaps i was PMSing and took this
Quote
Thanks - That is very helpful
  the wrong way.

sorry.

No problem.  Sorry if it sounded like I was implying that you weren't being helpful.  Didn't mean that at all.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 09:38:35 AM »

>One question - why 4 days and not 6?  Then the remaining cells would have been 2 days old or less when the queen was removed.

An egg hatches in 3-31/2 days. a good queen is started with well feed larvae in about 24 hours. If the cell is capped in four days the larvae may not be properly nourished (they chose an older larvae).


Right - I wasn't taking into account that the eggs don't hatch immediately.  So by removing capped cells at 4 days after removing the queen the only queen cells left have to be from eggs that were laid right before they became queenless.

Or does it?
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
David LaFerney
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 924


Location: Cookeville, TN - U.S.A.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 09:56:21 AM »

rather than take the chance, why not just split them now?  will both be able to build up before winter?
I agree with Kathy do a split just divide up what you got and buy a Queen alot less risk of swarming.

That might be what I actually do, but I'm considering other options because:

1)I would like to produce my own queens to (hopefully) incorporate local genetics.
2)My wife's job of 20+ years recently evaporated, and it's not easy to justify expenses for what is essentially a hobby at this point.
Logged

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Samuel Clemens

Putting the "ape" in apiary since 2009.
Irwin
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2343


Location: Lakeside OR

howdy all


« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 10:02:50 AM »

rather than take the chance, why not just split them now?  will both be able to build up before winter?
I agree with Kathy do a split just divide up what you got and buy a Queen alot less risk of swarming.

That might be what I actually do, but I'm considering other options because:

1)I would like to produce my own queens to (hopefully) incorporate local genetics.
2)My wife's job of 20+ years recently evaporated, and it's not easy to justify expenses for what is essentially a hobby at this point.
Well good luck I wish you the best.
Logged

Fight organized crime!  Re-elect no one.
sc-bee
Super Bee
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1874


Location: Edgefield, SC


« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 10:39:45 AM »

>My opinion is... There are better ways.

Go for it id --- i know you not bashful  grin!!! Love to read you post.

As above, unless just trying to experience the moment, buy a queen.

Love you Katlin---- I mean Kathy grin Kiss!
Logged

John 3:16
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.613 seconds with 22 queries.

Google visited last this page July 22, 2014, 08:56:08 PM
anything