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Author Topic: Evolution of Bees - fact or Fiction  (Read 5317 times)
Lesli
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« on: March 18, 2005, 05:25:47 AM »

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The fossil record indicates that bears evolved from "dog-like" animals, thus the Family most closely related to Ursidae would be Canidae (the dogs). The bears' family tree looks like this:

http://www.americanbear.org/Evolution%20-%20Taxonomy.htm
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2005, 05:31:41 AM »

kind of like hyrex and elephants?
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Lesli
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2005, 05:41:18 AM »

Yeah, a lot like that.  cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2005, 09:06:55 AM »

Quote from: Beth Kirkley
I haven't found any downsides to bees.

I guess you have never parked your car in front of your hives wink


As far as dogs,  the only concern is them stepping on the bees in the grass.  Seems like at least once a year one of my dogs steps on a bee working some clover in the yard.  If it happens, make sure you pull the stinger out for them, otherwise it could be painful.

Keep some Benedril on hand too,  one of my black labs had a reaction and her face swelled up and she looked like a SharPei.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2005, 07:28:51 AM »

the fossil "record" is incomplete and in many families doesn't even exist. evolution is still just a highly debated theory that doesn't even come close to explaining how something as intricate as  the human eyeball or a honey bee colony could come into existence. why can't we see the glory of an intelligent designer in all of this ?  because to do so we would have to acknowledge that an all powerfull creator would also have rules of conduct that we are suppossed to follow...that, and the inability of science to explain God or any other supernatural phenomena.        just some thoughts...burny
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2005, 07:51:33 AM »

I agree completely burny - you couldn't have put it clearer.

Before getting my bees, I already knew that "evolution" as the scientists put it just isn't so. But after getting bees, I thought - now why can't scientists see the absolute amazingness of BEES?

But the reason is just as you said - and I tell that to my husband often - if a person faces the fact that 'there is a God', then they have to face what God requires. That's a scary thought. I know it scared me when I first realized it. I was in my 20's when my eyes suddenly opened to the idea.

Beth
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2005, 09:18:43 AM »

evolution and bee's.  no way that i can think that they could manage that one.  did they slowly evolve until one of the bees decided to be a queen or maybe the drone thought it would be best if he died on the mating flight.  the complexity of bees is amazing.  even today we still don't know the half of them though some of us think we do.  every day i learn something new and amazing (just about bees) that leads me to believe that there is intelligent design.  now you add a whole world into play and that is incredible.  later
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2005, 11:00:11 AM »

Beth: don't make me start talking about vibrating spaceships and cosmic gravity again  shocked

I just happen to believe that EVOLUTION is PART of God's great plan!!!  It isn't mentioned in the Bible because MAN didn't have scientific understanding at the time - and NEITHER do I believe we have come close to mastering the science yet!!!  We are young as far as species go - we learn and grow and all of that is part of the big picture which AGAIN I think is too great for us to grasp.

Although inspired by God, the Bible was written by man and MAN can only write about things within his understanding.

Just my thoughts. PS... This thread will be moved to the Coffee House, it is a bit off of beekeeping now Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2005, 01:01:31 PM »

ACTUALLY...... John, there is more advanced knowledge within the bible that science has only found out about in the last 100 years or so. Smiley Laws that God gave the Israelites was WAY beyond what was known to the rest of the world. Plus other verses in the bible tell of things that were not known to the common people of that day, and were not really proven until 100 years ago or so.

Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over the empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.
 
Lev 12:2  "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: 'When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean.
Lev 12:3  'On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (Doctors have found that on the 8th day, a babies pain resistance is up, and they develop extra vitamin K that helps with blood clotting. Therefore, doing a circumcision on the 8th day is the VERY BEST day - God designed it that way.)

Lev. 5 - Has stuff about touching dead things and becoming "unclean". Also how to fix this unclean condition. Things we now know..... if you touch a dead animal, clean your hands and clothes to get rid of germs and disease.

Lev. 13 - Tells alot about putting people in quarantine because of infections.

Lev. 15 - Talks about the spread of germs. (Germs weren't even known about until recently.)

Lev. 11 - Talks alot about "unclean" things. But what it's saying is that when "swarming things" die in a well, the water is "unclean". If an animal dies on wooden ware it should be washed in water, and if it dies on earthen ware to smash it up. Or if you found it and picked it up, your clothes and you were unclean and need to be washed.

Lev 19:5  'Now when you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted.
Lev 19:6  'It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and the next day; but what remains until the third day shall be burned with fire.
Lev 19:7  'So if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an offense; it will not be accepted. (We of course now know that unrefrigerated food is very bad for you.)

Lev. 19 - Also talks about becoming unclean after touching the body of a dead person.

There is so much more that I could show you that God taught the Israelites. These things were not known by people... but told to them by God. So how could the bible be just written by man? This is information that was completely foreign to them, and they started practicing it about 3,500 years ago. But yet science only revealed these things - round earth, currents in the ocean, water that comes from deep in the ocean, germs, diseases being controlled by quarantine, eating dairy and meat in the same meal is bad for your digestion, when to circumsise, the fact that the sun goes around the earth...... (so much more)..... these things were only revealed recently. How do you explain that?

Quote

I just happen to believe that EVOLUTION is PART of God's great plan!!! It isn't mentioned in the Bible because MAN didn't have scientific understanding at the time - and NEITHER do I believe we have come close to mastering the science yet!!! We are young as far as species go - we learn and grow and all of that is part of the big picture which AGAIN I think is too great for us to grasp.

Although inspired by God, the Bible was written by man and MAN can only write about things within his understanding.


So that statement isn't true (not completely anyway). There was scientific understanding - from God. And actually, we (as nations outside of the Israelites) didn't have this information, so yes scientists did have to LEARN this on their own and haven't mastered it yet!
It's true..... man can only write about things within their understanding. So how is it that the bible speaks of things that no one COULD know about back then?  hmmmmm? Smiley

I know it's a long post...... and well past due. Smiley You know me John. When it comes to the bible, I'm gonna do the searching to find for you what it REALLY says on a matter. It's an amazing book - fully inspired by God - with revelation within it that us stupid humans STILL haven't figured out fully.

Beth
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2005, 04:31:37 PM »

Quote from: Beth Kirkley
eating dairy and meat in the same meal is bad for your digestion,

Beth


So I should give up cheese burgers shocked
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2005, 05:33:07 PM »

If God didn't want us to have DOUBLE CHEESE BURGERS, he NEVER would have created the DOLLAR MENU at McDonalds!
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2005, 06:33:47 PM »

Man, thought I was on drugs when I looked at my previous post in context.  Then I realized the topic has been split and half moved here.

DOAH!!! rolleyes
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2005, 06:36:46 PM »

And now its drifted off to burger land.
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2005, 06:56:02 PM »

We can always count on you Jerry to make sure we get off track and begin talking about nothing. Tongue

(Just playin' with ya.)

Beth
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2005, 07:00:46 PM »

Sorry Rob:

Not to much experience with the split thingy, missed leaving your post at the original. Honestly, I lost the original post, I guess it's still there. Next time I think I'll just do the MOVE thing, with the shadow file, it's easier to follow.

(_8 (|)  Do'H .... Ummmmmm. Cheese Burgers
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2005, 07:07:02 PM »

Now Beth is blaming me for getting off topic.

Well the wind is blowing too hard to do much else around here. So I guess I could just cause trouble here. Make some administrators split/delete various different posts. Cause confussion, panic, riots.

Y2K is here!
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2005, 07:22:26 PM »

I thought about splitting this into a cheese burger topic - I sure wish we had REAL THREADING in this forum software. These posts go anywhere and everywhere VERY quickly.

Think I'll search for a THREAD hack - we need to start working on Hacks to expand the functionality of the forums - there are indeed some very good ones out there!
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2005, 12:35:09 AM »

Down here Hardys has the best burger.
3/4 lb truckstopper.
with bacon cheese and all the fixins

talk about feedin the multitudes
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2005, 04:10:52 AM »

Sorry folks, but I'll rise to the challenge you have set.  cheesy  I think evolution is a perfectly valid theory and accuratly reflects the amazing diversity found across all species worldwide.

Each is uniqely adapted to their host environment. You only have to look at some bird species across islands that have been joined in the past to see evolution at work. Different islands host a slighly different bird which has optimised itself to the majority food source available. E.g. shorter or longer beaks etc.

Why is their different fauna and flora? Seeds brought in my migratory birds, or seeds that float in ocean waters etc. Some islands end up with a different majority food source.

A trip to the national history museam shows some amazing history and fossils. I work with a devout Christian who refuses to acknowledge fossils exist and we we all created recently. Given I have picked fossils with my own bare hands off the beach I find that view difficult to resolve.

Of course the fossil record is incomplete - it ought to be. Huge areas of this world are still bscially unchartered in terms of rock analysis, furthermore, large areas of the world do not have a local vegetation type which is optimal for the formation of fossils.

Flipping the coin the other way, we do have a large number of fossils for a huge number of species which do show evolution in action - how is this explained?

People here mention the uniqueness of bees - but look at the different types, Mason Bees, Bumble Bees, these are all at different levels of social interaction - all evolved to meet a specific environment. E.g. bumble bees can live in places that are colder and with more rain as they are bigger and stronger.

Thats my opening thoughts anyway  shocked  rolleyes  cheesy

Adam
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Lesli
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2005, 06:36:45 AM »

While I agree that evolution is the best explanation of the mountains of data we have (and does not in any way exclude the presence of a deity), I still want to know:

Why does my dog like to eat bees?Huh
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2005, 06:50:19 AM »

Quote from: Lesli
While I agree that evolution is the best explanation of the mountains of data we have (and does not in any way exclude the presence of a deity), I still want to know:

Why does my dog like to eat bees?Huh


Dunno, our dog used to like Daddy Long legs - do you US folk know this?

like this



Adam
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2005, 08:57:57 AM »

Well, I believe in a type of evolving. I believe what the bible says.. ....

Gen 1:11  Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.
Gen 1:12  The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.
Gen 1:25  God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

"After their kind" is the key words. I don't believe that a bear came from a fish, or that humans came from monkeys. I don't believe we all started out from a single cell organism that came out of some mud puddle. I believe God created all sorts of different animals, and that there has been changes to some that will cause various types. Just as we see different breeds of dogs that we humans have manipulated into being. BUT.... everytime you see a change, it's with a loss of information - not an addition.

Explaination..... if you breed a medium size dog with a little dog - you generally get smaller dogs - not larger. Those smaller dogs have lost a bit of ability to have a medium size dog. Same goes for the other way around.... they have also lost the ability to have smaller dogs because they are now a mix of the two. The only way to get it back is to do another breeding. But each individual animal out of the breedings has lost part of what it's genetic make-up was.
I do believe in the survival of the fittest thing..... changes due to the need for living. But that has nothing to do with one animal changing into another kind of animal.

I also believe in dinosaurs, but not in the carbon dating they use to try and figure out the age. Heck, someone carbon dated a coke can found in the ocean, and the carbon date was over a million years old. It does not take millions of years to make oil - that's been proven. It does not take millions of years for something to petrify or for stelagtites to form or for coal to happen.... that's also been proven. As a matter of fact, our library has 10 inch long stelagtites on it the last I saw. I've even seen fossils of a fish eating a fish, and a fish giving birth. AND I've seen coal that had recent items in them..... one had a necklace, and another had a small iron pot imbedded in it. The answer I believe for fossils, oil, many of the petrified trees - is a world wide flood. The evidence is there, but you have to look at it with open eyes, not with pre-conceived views. That goes for many Christian too. There are alot of Christians out there that don't believe in dinosaurs and fossils because scientists say they're millions of years old. And since Christians believe in a young earth, they say "well, it doesn't fit, so it just can't be real". The fact that dinos lived it real, they just aren't as old as scientists say.

Anyone REALLY wanting to find out can see some stuff at a site called www.drdino.com, and another at www.creationevidence.org.

Scientists are just as guilty of being close-viewed to what they see. When they see evidence to a young earth, they ignore it and say it just can't be.

More scientific facts that scientists ignore. Our sun is shrinking at a rate of 5 feet an hour - and if our world was millions of years old the sun would have at one time been in the very space the earth is. Also, when radioactive materials degrade, one of the elements it releases is helium. This helium gets trapped in our atmosphere. If we had an old earth, then the air would be so full of helium we couldn't live. Still more.... the magnetic field has been has been decreasing by 6% each year, so if the earth was old, we wouldn't even have a magnetic field. (I keep thinking of more. Smiley )

Beth
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2005, 09:47:06 AM »

First, I haven't read every post - just a general comment though

I pray every night and several times a day, to a God I hope exists and yet - I see a world that I can rationally see as explained by science. I'm one of the luck people who can have their cake and eat it too.

I'm not affraid or asshamed to say I believe that God created all this, but I also think that if the Bible were written TODAY with the scientifuc understanding we currently hold, that the words, meanings and interpretations would be very different.

The Bible was written by man for man with limited knowledge of the Universe, and anything that comes off as "Scientific" or "Magical" might be phenominoms explainable today, but practically wizardry at the time.

But no matter what I read in the Bible ( and I will never be as learned as Beth and many others ) but I still believe that MUCH of the Bible is Parable - explaining things in stories of example to teach us a point about a given topic. Sort of a DICTIONARY of Examples of man's triumps and tragidies and how their faith can make miracles happen.

I don't think that is presumptuous of me, I think it is a valid explaination of the content.

One short example was Noah's Ark (nothng to do with the Musical I saw and commented about in Beemaster Radio) but an interpretation of the Biblical Story - where Noah brought onto the Ark a pair of EVERY CREATURE (which He knew to Exist) not all the creatures of the world. The creatures mentioned in the bible were not fanciful beasts which we know today exist around the globe, but animals in the regions the Bible was written in.

MY POINT - again, the Bible (Inspired by God) but written by man - and man is flawed and NOT all-knowing, so how could he create a book that explains the greatness and secrets of the Universe BEYOND his own knowledge of how things are COMBINED with his ability to imagine and translate things beyond his understanding?

I still think we are all part of God and God is not sitting on some giant thrown with Jesus to his right and the  Holy Spirit to his left - I think that is a Parable or better put - layman's explaination of the relative power of the energy forces that drive the Universe.

I believe we are all a part of that energy force, whether a believer or not - it is at that point I suggest you read any of my posts in the Darkside of the Moon Forum for details on the Universe and our part in it. No need rehashing the same materials - but even the word MATTER is there in the word material - just as God is in the word Good.

Is it so difficult for some of you to see there is a MIDDLE GROUND - does everyone HAVE TO take a left and right stance on EVERY issue. This is why I fear Engineers (who I work with on a daily basis) many NEVER see outside of the chalk-board world they live in. Luckily, there are many people today who realise that God doings CAN be explained by science - we just are not clever enough of a species YET to do the equations.

But when we finally can write an equation that explains it all (from the big bang or beginning of creation to the way the micro-universe works, which is how energy really drives the Universe) we will all understand that GOD created the Universe and that MAN can satisfy even the greatest of doubters by proving it through real-world math.

Just remember, it was only about 150 years ago that EVERYTHING that floated was made of material that floated - no one understood the theory of floatation - just a hundred years ago when man finally undertood the theory of lift and create flight. Why is it so hard to believe that (given enough time) and with the brains that GOD gave us - especially since we are said to be in HIS OWN IMAGE) that man can understand greater details on HOW we all came to be.

I don't think it is impossible to believe that God created us to someday have Godly powers - not to be the God, but to be GODLY - which I think is to be beyond the cave people who broke animal bones apart to eat their marrow and thus survived as a species, but to be MAN in God's Image - and if we constantly improve as become a more peaceful, loving and understanding being - wouldn't we THEN be more in God's Image?

But to become BETTER than what we were (and I hope EVERYONE can agree that MENTALLY we have evolved and we now know our childred can see an average lifespan of 100 years) that SOMETHING is CHANGING - and isn't change for the betterment and survival of a species EVOLUTION??? I think it is, and that goes back to my original point, EVOLUTION is PART of GOD'S PLAN. Why is that so hard for so many people to believe - I really think Darwin's Studies did an injustice to man's quest for the answers - in that, he came about at the wrong place in time. I'm not really sure WHEN a good place in time would have been.

More later....
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