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Author Topic: Elian Gonzales in reverse  (Read 829 times)

Offline SgtMaj

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Elian Gonzales in reverse
« on: June 02, 2009, 03:27:53 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/01/new.jersey.brazil.custody/index.html

I'm sure there were plenty of people here who thought it was absolutely horrible to return Elian to his dad, so what do you think about this case where the dad lives here? 

Offline reinbeau

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2009, 08:14:52 AM »
Sounds like the Brazilian court made the right decision - the man is his father.  This decision wasn't made by an American court, and has little resemblance to the Gonzales case.

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Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 11:35:43 PM »
You mean, other than the fact that it exactly resembles the elian case?

Dead mother - check
Living with other relatives - check
Father petitioning courts in another country for custody - check
Father wins custody - check
Custody of said child results in moving child across international borders - check

Police having to take child away from other relatives by force - not so much in this case, but that just speaks to the character or lack thereof with the other relatives the child was staying with.

So I'm curious if you also thought the right decision was made in the Gonzales case as well since custody was also restored to the father?

Online kathyp

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2009, 11:51:21 PM »
legally it was ok.  morally?? my opinion doesn't matter.  we don't decide questions of law based on opinion....or do we?

ruby ridge and waco were legal actions also.  both handled with equal grace to the Gonzalez case.  wonder what the world thought of that picture of that child being ripped out of that house with his family held at gunpoint?  i know.  it was bill and everybody loved bill...  he could even burn children and shoot mothers and get away with it!
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 12:07:52 AM »
legally it was ok.  morally?? my opinion doesn't matter.  we don't decide questions of law based on opinion....or do we?

ruby ridge and waco were legal actions also.  both handled with equal grace to the Gonzalez case.  wonder what the world thought of that picture of that child being ripped out of that house with his family held at gunpoint?  i know.  it was bill and everybody loved bill...  he could even burn children and shoot mothers and get away with it!

Well, as I recall, Cuba was rather happy that we didn't allow the family to stand in the way... and I'm sure other countries were equally happy to know that we weren't going to trample their rights just because of a couple of stubborn people.  It may have been a little overkill for the cops to have gone in with guns drawn, but keep in mind that at that point the family was already in violation of the court orders and there was some question as to whether or not they were armed or whether or not they would harm the child before letting him get taken away.  Still, I'm sure everyone would have preferred them to have gone in with tasers instead... but they wouldn't have had to go there at all if the family had obeyed the court orders like the stepfather in Brazil did. 

Online kathyp

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2009, 12:24:16 AM »
we would have been on equally firm legal ground to let him stay.  we have a clear policy on Cubans.  also, once he was here, he immediately came under our constitutional law.  why did we not petition the Cuban government to let his father come here on humanitarian grounds?  the reno justice department made a calculated decision.  most of their calculated decisions were bad.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Elian Gonzales in reverse
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2009, 01:24:40 AM »
we would have been on equally firm legal ground to let him stay.  we have a clear policy on Cubans.  also, once he was here, he immediately came under our constitutional law.  why did we not petition the Cuban government to let his father come here on humanitarian grounds?  the reno justice department made a calculated decision.  most of their calculated decisions were bad.

Elian's father did come here, but didn't want to stay here.  Ultimately, isn't it the parents' decision on what country they want to raise their kids in?

So in this case, the Brazillian govt. could have said the same thing... why is it any different in reverse?

 

anything