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Author Topic: Letter from a Dodge dealer  (Read 10289 times)
hankdog1
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2009, 03:29:47 AM »

SrgMaj just wondering how much experince you have in the field?  I sold cars at a Chevrolet Chrysler Dodge Jeep dealership at one time.  So let me lay it out for you about how those "warranties" work.  When he loses his dealership the guy also loses a big selling tool "Chrysler's Limited Lifetime Powertrain Warrenty" the bumper to bumper will stay in tact as you say.  Now being a dealer he might even sell certified preowned used Chrysler products which carry an extended warrenty because thier cerified that goes down the tolet without Chrysler's name up out frount.  Those parts are pretty much worthless to the guy as a large part of your business at a dealership is service.  How can you do service if your no longer a dealer?  There are people that only have thier cars and trucks worked on by Chrysler Cerified Master Mechanics.  I know the concept of customer loyalty is escaping you as you have said everyone in the car business is the scum of the earth from the quote above.  Okay now we move on to another point that you haven't taken into consideration is that by losing his dealership those new used cars on the lot now are priced higher then those at other lots because they have to be sold without rebates and Chrysler Financial's incentives.  Of course this will be taken with a grain of salt considering i actually worked at a dealership and therefore lose all credability with you. 

Absolutely none, thanks for clarifying all of that... none of which changes the fact that he's asking for another hand out and that he can still sell the cars as new (albeit it will be a little more difficult for him)... nor the fact that he's still better off than if GM had just gone out of business.

So what do you think we should do, feel sorry for the guy and give his and all the other dealerships some of our tax dollars? 

We as honest tax paying americans should be outraged that tax dollars went into keeping a company running and now they are doing this to dealerships across the nation.  As i see it there is a breach of contract there and Chrysler should be held to thier original agreement with the man until he being the end partner has the option of terminating it.  Your not also thinking about this guy wanting to keep his doors open and employing 50 or so people doesn't seem like much but you decide to shut down 1500 dealerships now multiply that by 50.  Now you have 75000+ people signing up for unemployment that were forced out and signing up for unemployment.  So basically since the government is effectively running the company we should all be outraged writing letters and making phone calls to house members and senetors in our state to stop this horrible mess from happening.  See doesn't cost you more then a few stamps and some long distance phone calls.  Instead of discussing wheather the guy is getting the raw end of the deal or not we should all be outraged at how this whole mess came about in the first place.  Not to mention the fact that almost every american is somewhat responsible for what is going on right now.  Our addiction to credit has led the country into this mess and distroyed everything we were able to hold our heads high about.  So easy to blame others like those up on capital hill for not protecting us from ourselves. 
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2009, 06:57:43 AM »

Maybe this has been asked before.  If so, I'm sorry.

But why are they closing dealerships at all?  Gotta have dealerships to sell cars and these guys are buying cars from Chrysler, right?
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2009, 08:52:22 AM »

Quote
feel sorry for the guy and give his and all the other dealerships some of our tax dollars? 

Hmm...we've already done that to the tune of something like 20 trillion dollars.

No, I don't advocate that.  I'm actually all for going back and yanking back the 20,000,000,000,000 that the happy magic money fairy has been spreading across the landscape of broken wreckage of businesses.

-rick
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Rick
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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2009, 12:07:21 AM »

We as honest tax paying americans should be outraged that tax dollars went into keeping a company running and now they are doing this to dealerships across the nation.  As i see it there is a breach of contract there and Chrysler should be held to thier original agreement with the man until he being the end partner has the option of terminating it.

Which means spending more tax dollars.  Any loss GM takes right now isn't coming out of their pockets, it's coming out of the taxpayer pockets, and I don't see why I should have to pay to keep this guy's dealership open when he's never sold me a car or done anything to earn my money.

Your not also thinking about this guy wanting to keep his doors open and employing 50 or so people doesn't seem like much but you decide to shut down 1500 dealerships now multiply that by 50.  Now you have 75000+ people signing up for unemployment that were forced out and signing up for unemployment.  So basically since the government is effectively running the company we should all be outraged writing letters and making phone calls to house members and senetors in our state to stop this horrible mess from happening.

So why don't we just have the government take over all businesses, so that they can guarantee everyone has a job... of course, that's not a function I want our government doing.  So I have no problem with 75,000 people having to find new jobs just like they would have already if the government hadn’t loaned GM the money they did.

 
See doesn't cost you more then a few stamps and some long distance phone calls. 

And taxes, which will have to be raised in order to add an additional 75,000 employees to the federal payroll.

Instead of discussing wheather the guy is getting the raw end of the deal or not we should all be outraged at how this whole mess came about in the first place.  Not to mention the fact that almost every american is somewhat responsible for what is going on right now.  Our addiction to credit has led the country into this mess and distroyed everything we were able to hold our heads high about.  So easy to blame others like those up on capital hill for not protecting us from ourselves. 

So let’s not ask them to do any more protecting us from ourselves bit here… they shouldn’t have rescued GM in the first place.  It should have been 150,000 people without jobs… plus the factory workers.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2009, 12:08:37 AM »

Quote
feel sorry for the guy and give his and all the other dealerships some of our tax dollars? 

Hmm...we've already done that to the tune of something like 20 trillion dollars.

No, I don't advocate that.  I'm actually all for going back and yanking back the 20,000,000,000,000 that the happy magic money fairy has been spreading across the landscape of broken wreckage of businesses.

-rick

Sounds good to me... give that back to the taxpayers and I'll bet we wouldn't be in a financial mess to begin with.
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hankdog1
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« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2009, 05:20:27 PM »

We as honest tax paying americans should be outraged that tax dollars went into keeping a company running and now they are doing this to dealerships across the nation.  As i see it there is a breach of contract there and Chrysler should be held to thier original agreement with the man until he being the end partner has the option of terminating it.

Which means spending more tax dollars.  Any loss GM takes right now isn't coming out of their pockets, it's coming out of the taxpayer pockets, and I don't see why I should have to pay to keep this guy's dealership open when he's never sold me a car or done anything to earn my money.

Who says anything about paying to keep his dealership open the guy wants to operate it on his own.  Those businesses are considered small to medium size businesses and normally owned by one guy or a couple of guys.  So your not getting the point it isn't costing you any tax dollars.

Your not also thinking about this guy wanting to keep his doors open and employing 50 or so people doesn't seem like much but you decide to shut down 1500 dealerships now multiply that by 50.  Now you have 75000+ people signing up for unemployment that were forced out and signing up for unemployment.  So basically since the government is effectively running the company we should all be outraged writing letters and making phone calls to house members and senetors in our state to stop this horrible mess from happening.

So why don't we just have the government take over all businesses, so that they can guarantee everyone has a job... of course, that's not a function I want our government doing.  So I have no problem with 75,000 people having to find new jobs just like they would have already if the government hadn’t loaned GM the money they did.

Your missing the point here just because you have already screwed up doesn't mean you have to follow the logic.  What does GM have to do with this conversation anyways it's Chrysler that is doing the guy in.  Yes they got money was it the wrong thing to do yes it was.  But just because that's the case doesn't mean you follow the same stupid logic to find a solution to all the dealerships that are getting the shaft right now by Chrylser.

 
See doesn't cost you more then a few stamps and some long distance phone calls. 

And taxes, which will have to be raised in order to add an additional 75,000 employees to the federal payroll.

Not adding any taxes to the federal payroll.  Do you honesty think that Chrysler strokes the checks to this employees?  They are owned by people they only buy product off of Chrysler.  If it goes under later on so be it but you can't just take it away.

Instead of discussing wheather the guy is getting the raw end of the deal or not we should all be outraged at how this whole mess came about in the first place.  Not to mention the fact that almost every american is somewhat responsible for what is going on right now.  Our addiction to credit has led the country into this mess and distroyed everything we were able to hold our heads high about.  So easy to blame others like those up on capital hill for not protecting us from ourselves. 

So let’s not ask them to do any more protecting us from ourselves bit here… they shouldn’t have rescued GM in the first place.  It should have been 150,000 people without jobs… plus the factory workers.

Yeah but you and i and everyone that has ever used credit is to blame for this mess.  See doesn't make sence to buy a house on a 30 year loan and pay 3 times what that house it worth.  Get rid of everyones debt and the problem is solved.  Simple and easy as that we are all to blame and we will be until we wake up and start taking responsiblity for our own actions.  Government can be blamed as much as you want to but the fact of the matter is if we all didn't act like debt is a good thing then they would never had to weigh in on Chrysler, GM, AIG, and the banks.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2009, 05:29:06 PM »

Maybe this has been asked before.  If so, I'm sorry.

But why are they closing dealerships at all?  Gotta have dealerships to sell cars and these guys are buying cars from Chrysler, right?

To you I would recommend googling an overview of Cassandra's curse from Greek mythology. -just so you get a feel for what you could be in for saying sensible things like that.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2009, 04:58:33 AM »

Who says anything about paying to keep his dealership open the guy wants to operate it on his own.  Those businesses are considered small to medium size businesses and normally owned by one guy or a couple of guys.  So your not getting the point it isn't costing you any tax dollars.


Chrysler is losing money, and the money they are losing is coming out of taxpayer pockets right now... agree?  
One of the reasons Chrysler states that they are losing money is that there are too many dealerships... agree? (check out this source for why they state they are losing money by having so many dealerships: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i_QEalIZURaSxibsGhxgF1RwFVEAD98MPHNG0 )

So if you want to keep all those dealerships, you must accept that Chrysler is going to lose some money (a little over 2 billion dollars annually) on them and that the money spent by Chrysler to keep them will come out of taxpayer pockets... agree?  

Might as well be another bailout directly to the dealership because the end-result is the same... it's going to cost you and me money and they've never done anything to earn our business, so why should they be allowed to take the money we worked hard for and earned?

Your missing the point here just because you have already screwed up doesn't mean you have to follow the logic.  What does GM have to do with this conversation anyways it's Chrysler that is doing the guy in.  Yes they got money was it the wrong thing to do yes it was.  But just because that's the case doesn't mean you follow the same stupid logic to find a solution to all the dealerships that are getting the shaft right now by Chrylser.


Sorry, I was using Chrysler and GM interchangibly because they are both in the same position respectively... both are costing the govt. (taxpayers) money and both are cutting dealerships.

Not adding any taxes to the federal payroll.  Do you honesty think that Chrysler strokes the checks to this employees?  They are owned by people they only buy product off of Chrysler.  If it goes under later on so be it but you can't just take it away.


According to them, they are losing money on them... and that money is coming out of our collective pockets... that's good enough for me.

If we weren't the ones footing the bill for Chrysler's debt right now, then I would agree with you.  But we can't just ignore the fact that we are the ones paying for their losses... and it's not exactly ethical to steal from Peter in order to keep Paul in business.

Just for fun I crunched a few of the numbers... Chrysler testified before congress that they are losing 2.033 billion dollars annually on these 789 dealerships.  Divided evenly amongst them, that's $2,576,679 each, per year.  At first that didn't seem like a big number to keep 50 people employed, but to be sure I just wanted to crunch the numbers one more time to figure out how much it was costing us per employee... divided by 50 we get $51,533 that it's costing us each year, per employee, which could well be more than their entire pay + benefits package to begin with!  Now, call me crazy, but I think there are probably better things that taxpayers can do with $51,533 than to pay one person to be a car salesman in an economy where people aren't buying many cars to begin with.

Yeah but you and i and everyone that has ever used credit is to blame for this mess.  See doesn't make sence to buy a house on a 30 year loan and pay 3 times what that house it worth.  Get rid of everyones debt and the problem is solved.  Simple and easy as that we are all to blame and we will be until we wake up and start taking responsiblity for our own actions.  Government can be blamed as much as you want to but the fact of the matter is if we all didn't act like debt is a good thing then they would never had to weigh in on Chrysler, GM, AIG, and the banks.


I disagree, I think people who got in over their heads with credit and culdn't pay their bills are to blame (mostly, though I also place some blame on our continuing addiction to oil which is sending many hundreds of billions of our dollars overseas each year).  I also think they would have had to weigh in on Chrysler and GM anyway, because of the price of gas and (as usual) American auto-makers refused to put vehicles on the market that consumers want in times of high fuel prices or fuel shortages (remind you of the '70's?  Guess they didn't learn their lessons... same mistakes, same financial problems resulting from those mistakes).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 06:06:58 AM by SgtMaj » Logged
SgtMaj
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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2009, 05:43:45 AM »

Maybe this has been asked before.  If so, I'm sorry.

But why are they closing dealerships at all?  Gotta have dealerships to sell cars and these guys are buying cars from Chrysler, right?


From: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i_QEalIZURaSxibsGhxgF1RwFVEAD98MPHNG0

Quote
Jim Press, Chrysler's vice chairman and president, testified before a Senate committee last week that the poor performance of many of the dealers the automaker wants to eliminate costs the company $1.5 billion in lost sales each year, along with $150 million in advertising and marketing costs and $33 million in administrative costs.

Press also attributed product engineering and development costs of $1.4 billion over four years to the dealers in question.

GM and Chrysler also have argued that they need healthy dealer bases in order to be successful. Chrysler has said that most of the dealers it wants to eliminate are either unprofitable, don't carry all three brands of Chrysler vehicles, or are located too close to another Chrysler dealer.

Given the steep drop in U.S. new vehicle demand in the past year, along with the increase in competition from overseas automakers, there just are too few sales to go around, the automakers say.

And if dealers are struggling to stay afloat, they can't afford to make needed investments in their dealerships or provide the kind of service customers demand, which could reflect badly on an automaker and make it harder for the company to compete against its rivals, the automakers say.

While the dealers agree that's true, they say market forces and individual decisions by dealers should be allowed to dictate who goes out of business.


In response to the last sentance from the excerpt, the dealers would be right, if it wasn't costing taxpayers in the meantime. 
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2009, 07:26:30 AM »

This all assumes that the money goes from Chrysler down to the dealership level.It doesn't happen that way. Chryslers real problems are at the manufacturing level. When manufacturers keep manufacturing when the market is not moving cars to keep factory workers on the payroll,the snowball starts rolling. This is exactly why the UAW is going to have such a large stake in General Motors after their bankruptcy.
This is what happened.And a lot of that is because of the stranglehold the UAW has on these companies with the contracts they rammed down their throats.The exhorbitant costs are the wages and benefits that were being paid to the UAW employees. You will not find these pay packages and associated costs at the dealerships.  This is exactly why the UAW is going to have such a large stake in General Motors after their bankruptcy.They are hoping to keep these inflated wages at all costs.Even if the cost is the failure of the business.
 It's quite easy to take it out on the dealers.
But if the best way to sell your product is to limit your exposure to the market,I wish them well.
 I have not heard of Honda,Toyota ,Huyundai or any of the foreign car dealers in our area talking of closing their doors.As a matter of fact,if there is a new franchise being opened,it is typically for a foreign owned manufacturer.And the money they invest in these buildings is tremendous. they are definitely out to service the customer.

What will be interesting to see how it's played out is Ford motor company who opted out of the government money. Will uncle Sam place tough standards on Ford so they will not harm GM and Chrysler in the aftermath? If left to the free market without the government sanctioning them,they may very well come out as King of the hill.
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2009, 08:34:46 AM »

This all assumes that the money goes from Chrysler down to the dealership level.It doesn't happen that way. Chryslers real problems are at the manufacturing level. When manufacturers keep manufacturing when the market is not moving cars to keep factory workers on the payroll,the snowball starts rolling. This is exactly why the UAW is going to have such a large stake in General Motors after their bankruptcy.
This is what happened.And a lot of that is because of the stranglehold the UAW has on these companies with the contracts they rammed down their throats.The exhorbitant costs are the wages and benefits that were being paid to the UAW employees. You will not find these pay packages and associated costs at the dealerships.  This is exactly why the UAW is going to have such a large stake in General Motors after their bankruptcy.They are hoping to keep these inflated wages at all costs.Even if the cost is the failure of the business.
 It's quite easy to take it out on the dealers.
But if the best way to sell your product is to limit your exposure to the market,I wish them well.

According to testimony given by Chrysler executives before congress, these 789 dealerships are directly costing them 2.033 billion dollars a year... I have no reason to believe they are cooking the books, especially since I think it's highly likely that their books are under close scrutiny to begin with, and in that article I posted it said even the dealerships agree that they are costing Chrysler money but they disagree with the method used to select which ones should close.

I have not heard of Honda,Toyota ,Huyundai or any of the foreign car dealers in our area talking of closing their doors.As a matter of fact,if there is a new franchise being opened,it is typically for a foreign owned manufacturer.And the money they invest in these buildings is tremendous. they are definitely out to service the customer.

That's because when gas was expensive (and it's getting expensive again) GM and Chrysler had no vehicles to offer that gave high fuel economy... Toyota, Huyundai, other foreign automakers did, and even Ford did (At one point there was a one year waiting list with an up front down payment required to buy the SMART car, so the problem wasn't that people weren't buying vehicles, it's just that when gas prices spike they don't want to buy vehicles that look like gas guzzlers). 

What will be interesting to see how it's played out is Ford motor company who opted out of the government money. Will uncle Sam place tough standards on Ford so they will not harm GM and Chrysler in the aftermath? If left to the free market without the government sanctioning them,they may very well come out as King of the hill.

At least as far as US auto manufacturers are concerned I think you're right... though Toyota may end up being the largest overall.
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2009, 10:07:24 AM »

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That's because when gas was expensive (and it's getting expensive again) GM and Chrysler had no vehicles to offer that gave high fuel economy

bull.  they were in trouble before.  an economy that kept people from buying new cars as often as they might have in the past pushed them over the edge.  they were in trouble because they made unsupportable agreements with unions. things like job banks, 100% coverage of health care, etc...
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2009, 04:50:50 PM »

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That's because when gas was expensive (and it's getting expensive again) GM and Chrysler had no vehicles to offer that gave high fuel economy

bull.  they were in trouble before.  an economy that kept people from buying new cars as often as they might have in the past pushed them over the edge.  they were in trouble because they made unsupportable agreements with unions. things like job banks, 100% coverage of health care, etc...

It's easy to blame the UAW for it, but the theory that it's all the UAW's fault needs to reconcile with the fact that not all automakers that had similar dealings with the UAW were equally affected.
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2009, 06:27:55 PM »



It's easy to blame the UAW for it, but the theory that it's all the UAW's fault needs to reconcile with the fact that not all automakers that had similar dealings with the UAW were equally affected.
[/quote]

Well,
Which auto makers dealing with the UAW are doing well?
GM is selling off Saturn and I'm sure that is payback for starting it in a right to work state without UAW employees.Pensky is probably going to outsource manufacturing offshore so he can make it a profitable company. Hummer is being sold to China(Could be a national security issue if they also get the Hummer military tech,but thats to be expected from a Democrat administration.(Remember Clintons and Loral?)But as far far as Chrysler is concerned,the UAW costs them much more than the dealerships do.The dealers do not have the political clout that UAW does.
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2009, 06:55:02 PM »

bull.  they were in trouble before.  an economy that kept people from buying new cars as often as they might have in the past pushed them over the edge.  they were in trouble because they made unsupportable agreements with unions. things like job banks, 100% coverage of health care, etc...


Follow the money. Who stands to gain the most in this illegal thuggery being committed by Obama and other politicians in DC? The UAW.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2009, 08:46:11 PM »

Follow the money. Who stands to gain the most in this illegal thuggery being committed by Obama and other politicians in DC? The UAW.

DING DING DING!  We have a winner!   afro
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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2009, 08:49:13 PM »

watch for the UAW to try to take out Ford.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2009, 09:22:22 PM »

watch for the UAW to try to take out Ford.

OOh, I didn't think about that, but I'll bet you are right on the money. Ford didn't take the money, but they do have the UAW to contend with. Great point.  Smiley
Also, there seems to be a bit of flapping going on about Fed-Ex and UPS as of late. Isn't UPS union? And Fed-Ex is not? And I think I heard something about Dem congressmen trying to pass some type of legislation that would require Fed-Ex to unionize or face penalties?
Anyone here know the story? I've just heard bits and pieces, but the talk of union labor, government sleaze tactics, and now the future of Ford has me wondering.
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« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2009, 09:55:55 PM »

Well,
Which auto makers dealing with the UAW are doing well?


Ford seems to be doing ok.  If it was all the UAW's fault, then they should be in the same position as GM and Chrysler.

GM is selling off Saturn and I'm sure that is payback for starting it in a right to work state without UAW employees.


Or because the Saturn brand hasn't been profitable... ever.

"In its 16-year existence, there's not a shred of evidence anywhere that would suggest that General Motors' Saturn division has ever turned a profit." From: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=116831

Pensky is probably going to outsource manufacturing offshore so he can make it a profitable company. Hummer is being sold to China(Could be a national security issue if they also get the Hummer military tech,but thats to be expected from a Democrat administration.(Remember Clintons and Loral?)


The tech wouldn't be a security issue because it's not classified anymore.  So anyone that wants it already has it.  The manufacturing might be, but no more so than our rifles that are also manufactured in China.  If we ever had to go to war with China, it's doubtful it would be a conventional war anyway.

But as far far as Chrysler is concerned,the UAW costs them much more than the dealerships do.The dealers do not have the political clout that UAW does.


Or they at least don't have the legal protection that unions do.  But yes, the dealers don't cost Chrysler as much as the UAW's collective bargaining has.  But I don't think anyone has said that they did.
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« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2009, 09:57:45 PM »

Follow the money. Who stands to gain the most in this illegal thuggery being committed by Obama and other politicians in DC? The UAW.

How exactly is the UAW gaining anything from Chrysler's move to shut down dealers? 
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