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Author Topic: liberties & privileges  (Read 1382 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: May 30, 2009, 04:40:33 PM »

Under another topic Vibe writes;

“No state shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and attach a fee to it.”
Murdoch v. Pennsylvania, U.S. Supreme Court, [319 U.S. 105 (1943).]

Now unless I am mistaken, man is at liberty to do anything he wants until there is a law against doing such. So I just have to wonder how many liberties have been turned into privileges and licensed and had fees attached. Yet many Americans are just fine with that. They in fact proclaim loudly that we have not lost those liberties, we still have them, you just have to get a license or a permit.
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2009, 08:50:41 PM »

 My curiosity is picked. I wonder what the legal definition of a liberty is?
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 09:46:08 PM »

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Liberty

best i could do at the moment.  definition is simple, but complicated by courts...as usual.

jerrymac, i have through about our conversation and i am not trying to blow you off.  maybe we just went on to many side trips.  i'll try to give you the stripped down version of what i believe.   smiley

'the constitution was written as a simple document.  it give some basic rights, and limits the federal government.  the founders envisioned a federal government that would have limited powers and little impact on the day to day lives of citizens.  over the years, the courts have interpreted, reinterpreted, and mis-interpreted the constitution to give more power to the federal government and less to the states.  in addition, the states have become money bleep and voluntarily given up  more power to the feds.

historically, the more power is centralized, the less people are free.  power needs power to stay in power.  the founders knew this and hoped to avoid mistakes of the past.  TJ wrote about the powers of the court and how if anything were to destroy the republic, it would be the courts.  legislation can be a problem, but laws are easy to overturn when found to be wrong....until they have gone through the federal courts.  once they have done that, or god forbid, made it through the supreme court, they get chiseled in stone and are next  to impossible to overturn. 

the provision for a constitutional convention was put in there so that when a real change needed to be made the people and the states had to think about what they were doing.  those times that the constitution has been amended required effort and debate before coming to a decision that most could agree on.  when the courts take it on themselves to make these changes, that debate and power are taken from the people and from the states.  their decisions may not be written into the constitution, but the effect is the same.

everyone points to the 1st and 2nd amendments as the most important, and maybe they are, but the 10th belongs with them.  our right to be free of an oppressive centralized government depends on it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 11:07:29 PM »

See that link says what I said. A person has all the liberties in the world, until someone deprives him of them with some law.

Here is my favorite part of http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Liberty

"In all of these cases, the Court emphasized that individuals may disagree about whether the activity is morally acceptable, but the liberty inherent in the activity may not be proscribed even if a majority of the populace thinks that it should be."

These are the cases if you haven't read it yet.
Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 112 S. Ct. 2791, 120 L. Ed. 28 674 (1992),
In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 63 S. Ct. 1178, 87 L. Ed. 1628 (1943),
Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397, 109 S. Ct. 2533, 105 L. Ed. 2d 342 (1989),
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 11:24:00 PM »

everyone points to the 1st and 2nd amendments as the most important, and maybe they are, but the 10th belongs with them.  our right to be free of an oppressive centralized government depends on it.

Are we going to drag this over to here? OK  Smiley

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying. Let us stick with just the first amendment,just the freedom of speech part. (Unless you want another part) My understanding is: you are saying the states can do what ever they want with the first amendment.(Freedom of Speech) They can even do away with it if they want to.

I am saying; They can not deprive us of the right to free speech but they can move on to a stronger protection there of.

If a state tries to infringe upon the freedom of speech then Article VI, paragraph 2 kicks in. That being the supremacy clause. And if that isn't good enough then move on to the 14th amendment which tried to clear that up because states wanted more than what the 10th gave them. That being the ability to over ride the Bill of Rights. Does any of the first 10 Amendments mention individual states? If not, does that mean the individual states can just ignore them? And it the individual states can ignore them the why was all the effort put forth for the Bill of Rights if they can just be voided by the states. If they can be voided by the states then we can no longer have this discussion because our states do not like this kind of talk.


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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 09:26:07 AM »

the 10th was written to more specifically assure states of their freedom from federal interference on most things.  the 14th, to protect freed slaves.  i believe that the 14th was intentionally written non-specifically so that it could easily be applied to future similar situations.  it protects the individual from having the states take away his constitutional liberties without due process.  it does not impose on the states the same limits of power that the constitution imposes on the federal government.

Quote
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

you can read this to say that the decisions about liberties are left with the states and their obligation is to leave people alone unless they have cause to restrict their constitutional liberties.  i believe this was how it was intended to be read.  it is how it was interpreted for many years.

a state can not have slavery because there is no due process involved.  they can have forced prison labor.  a state can not arbitrarily take your right to vote, but if you abuse your citizenship and commit certain crimes, you lose the right to vote.  a state could not shut down the newspaper unless that papers were the kiddie porn gazette.......
states can not restrict your right to worship unless it involves things like human sacrifice, etc. 

while the baptist state of georgia could not exist in this day, the 14th does not apply the restrictions to the states, that the constituion applies to the feds.  it protects liberties only.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Vibe
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2009, 09:48:20 AM »

The Constitution was really clear about the Right to own property. And several SCOTUS decisions have been very clear about how it is unconstitutional to tax a right. But just try not paying your property taxes for a while - There's even a booming business that has developed from the sales from tax auctions.

If you have a right to trial for offenses, why do you have to pay court fees?
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2009, 10:10:21 AM »

If you have a right to trial for offenses, why do you have to pay court fees?

You have the right to have a car also. Have to pay for that too.  grin

This one should make your day.

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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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Vibe
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2009, 10:54:29 AM »


You have the right to have a car also. Have to pay for that too.  grin

You have the right to own one...not necessarily the right to operate it on the public highways though.

Sort of like firearms, you can own one, and carry one, but you do not have the right to discharge it except in appropriate circumstances.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2009, 12:17:33 PM »


You have the right to have a car also. Have to pay for that too.  grin


You have the right to own one...not necessarily the right to operate it on the public highways though.


Are you sure about that?

http://mcrcg.org/Right%20to%20Travel.htm
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2009, 12:30:07 PM »

it it's a right, we shouldn't have to pay to drive!  no license fees, no car registrations....

see how the courts can mess things up?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2009, 01:23:36 PM »

Yes it comes down to the courts messing it all up. But let's face it, there are a lot of people that want there to be a license. They want it to be a privilege and not a right.... especially MADD. How else would we get the idiots off the road? Shoot them?   

The loss of that liberty even has a name. "The Orphaned Right".

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/orphaned_right.pdf

"The degree of traffic regulation is discounted as trivial by some Americans, but it has
important implications on the level of freedom in the United States. Americans are
largely dependent on motorized travel today because a substantial amount of all land
travel is by car. Most Americans do not have access "to any viable alternative
public mode of transportation." They must rely on automobile travel as their
primary means of getting to work and for many of their basic practical, social, and
recreational needs. Today, people are more likely to come into contact with law
enforcement officers as a result of road traffic than in any other circumstance. Thus, the impositions of driver licensing and traffic patrol by agents of the State have generated a very real increase in the State's control over Americans' lives."
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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Vibe
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2009, 03:16:04 PM »


Yes, I'm sure. You have every right to travel, and you have every right to transport all of your stuff. But you have to show competency and gain permission in the form of a license if you want to operate a motor vehicle upon the public highways. You can operate one all you want on your own property without one, just not on the public roads. You are free to hire out the vehicle operation - so you personally are not required to have the license.

Now a license to keep bees? How nutz is that.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 03:41:36 PM by Vibe » Logged

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eri
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2009, 05:54:41 PM »

>Now a license to keep bees? How nutz is that.

Keeping bees, how nutz is that Huh

I do believe, though, that driver's licenses and traffic laws, as well as the requirement of Social Security Numbers and oaths to God, have invaded my privacy and put into question my good citizenship more than anything else in my personal experience. I don't disagree with much of the reasoning behind traffic and employment laws, but I do think perhaps unintended ramifications of "big brotherlyness" have resulted from them.
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