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Author Topic: Global Warming  (Read 12820 times)
SgtMaj
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« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2009, 01:37:36 PM »

For a while the lake levels were dropping and everyone was blaming it on Global warming. Now they know that wasn't the reason. It was another example of the cyclical nature of Earth. Just like this climate change stuff.

I'm sorry, but I don't think so.  Lake levels rise and fall all the time with local weather, municipal and irrigation water useage, and dam spillage or retention... which means lake levels have nothing to do with anything, not even cyclical climate changes.  Where do you get the bunk that anyone said it had to do with anything?  I think that's just more strawman construction by the lobbyists.  Well, you certainly managed to rip apart that strawman very well, lol.
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« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2009, 01:53:04 PM »

For a while the lake levels were dropping and everyone was blaming it on Global warming. Now they know that wasn't the reason. It was another example of the cyclical nature of Earth. Just like this climate change stuff.

Where do you get the bunk that anyone said it had to do with anything?  I think that's just more strawman construction by the lobbyists.  Well, you certainly managed to rip apart that strawman very well, lol.


OH I don't know.... Places like this.
NewScientist.com is the world's leading online science and technology news service, with a global network of award-winning journalists.

Global warming is shrinking the Great Lakes
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19426064.100
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« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2009, 03:10:54 PM »

For a while the lake levels were dropping and everyone was blaming it on Global warming. Now they know that wasn't the reason. It was another example of the cyclical nature of Earth. Just like this climate change stuff.

I'm sorry, but I don't think so. 
And that makes a difference.....how?

Quote
Lake levels rise and fall all the time with local weather, municipal and irrigation water useage, and dam spillage or retention... which means lake levels have nothing to do with anything, not even cyclical climate changes. 
Says you, yet scientists disagree.  So who do we give credence to, scientists or an internet troll?  Hmmmm.......I know where my money's going.

Quote
Where do you get the bunk that anyone said it had to do with anything?  I think that's just more strawman construction by the lobbyists.  Well, you certainly managed to rip apart that strawman very well, lol.
You would know strawmen very well, wouldn't you?
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« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2009, 04:46:55 PM »

I got to say SARGE, you are getting to be one annoying bag of chittlin' puckers to several members who express to me in PMs how annoying you are - with posts from you such as "I'll let you in on a little secret... I started this thread as a social experiment." which by the way, I don't care much of anyone using our members as personal lab rats, and then in many posts using language pointed at members personally and not just their ideas and thoughts. Referencing a topic by quotes is fine and normal, seeing 80% quote and one-lined zingers in responce is annoying.

I have to say this and gladly do so in public, if you have disagreeing ideas, generalise your references toward the opposing concepts - I don't want to see anything that looks like personal attacks at a members unique ideas, surely you can debate an issue without dragging the people you disagree with into it?

I like people with passion, but be mindful, here  you debate issues NOT personal opinions, personal opinions are shared not criticized here. If you disagree, then easy on the ENDLESS QUOTING and try not beating dead horses.

On a topical note, I think everything is cyclical, I just believe none of us are lucky enough to understand the complexity of interweaving cycles that overlap and interact, few things in this world are as simple as the phases of the moon, tidal changes and 11 years sun spot cycles. But to think man doesn't contribute to Earthly issues seems a bit naive too. I think back to the original Gulf War and remember the countless oil wells on fire, pumping black smoke by the billions of cubic feet into the atmosphere - personally, I think Saddam could have been held accountable for crimes against the planet.

But I have said and will repeat that I believe EARTH is a living, breathing entity of its own and capable of doing whatever it needs to in order to survive. If and when MANKIND becomes to large of a threat to Earth, then we will likely find our species wiped clean of this planet, plagues have occurred before but none to a scale of total annihilation of our species. Lucky for us I suppose we haven't reached that point, even with 6.3 billion people MOST living in squalor, yet somehow through the grace of God or planetary miracle we haven't exceeded the tolerance level which will initiate the giant can of RAID that eventually will doom us humans.

Sarge, if you must respond, do you think you can do it without sub-quoting me 40+ times - don't pick apart people's posts like a seagull tearing at a clam shell - I am asking that you cool your jets a bit, some times you get on member's nerves, especially lately and I get letters in PM about you, when this happens more than a few times in a week about any members, I usually write letters like this in open forum so that others can see that attempts are made to calm things down - it is a more civilized way than just waking up one day and wondering where a member went.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2009, 08:11:00 PM »

For a while the lake levels were dropping and everyone was blaming it on Global warming. Now they know that wasn't the reason. It was another example of the cyclical nature of Earth. Just like this climate change stuff.

Where do you get the bunk that anyone said it had to do with anything?  I think that's just more strawman construction by the lobbyists.  Well, you certainly managed to rip apart that strawman very well, lol.


OH I don't know.... Places like this.
NewScientist.com is the world's leading online science and technology news service, with a global network of award-winning journalists.

Global warming is shrinking the Great Lakes
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19426064.100


Weren't they the same ones that said CCD had been solved by a couple scientists in Spain and that all we have to do is start treating it with fumidil b?  How's that working out?
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2009, 08:55:53 AM »

You've all got me curious to know what you all think lake levels have to do with, well, anything?


Its called sarcasm, Sarge.  You mentioned the sea level change due to global warming.  Why not the lakes too?

But...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png

Hmm....look linear to me since 1900.  Before airplanes and cars were common.  If I apply the same global warming reasoning to the Great Lakes as they are to the sea level change, we're doomed.  12 inches per year!  Yes, I am being silly. 

<GASP> NEWSFLASH!!  THIS JUST IN!!  The SUN, that giant orb of burning plasma in the sky actually can have an effect on earth!!!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/04/nasa-goddard-study-suggests-solar-variation-plays-a-role-in-our-current-climate/

Silly me...and here I thought that all that carbon dioxide was stifling the the sun's spots.


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Rick
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« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2009, 01:26:10 PM »

I've always read our environment is a closed loop system, from early elementary school on - which to me means that just because evaporation causes cloud formation and eventually it gets heavy enough to fall, it doesn't mean the rain will fall in the same place. Lakes, rivers, steams and on and on will always vary somewhat unless we have exact reoccuring rain patterns.

That alone could explain variations in any water table, but we keep hearing gloom and doom melting of ice caps which I highly doubt is a new occurance, it is more likely the millionth time not the first. But we are creatures who are here but a century at best with gathered data only a few hundred years old and of course we toss it the speculative data of deep ice cores, tree rings on great old trees and then the real speculation begins.

The problem really seems to be that we humans live too short a life and I think it is natural for us to assume that soemething, good or bad or Biblical in nature because we hope that our existance makes a difference.

All but a sprinkle of WW1 vets exist, another 20 years and anyone from WW2 or Holocaust victums will be nothing be hearsay and videotaped evidence of atrocities, and some day (before we can even imagine) our own existance, no matter what our age will be no more than a historical blurb. If we lived thousands of years, life's stories and how we evaluate history would be different - but sadly we don't and what little is written down or filmed is all we will have to even prove we were here.

Luckily, with technology, we will all leave a bigger footprint in history than anyone before us - at least the mortals among us, likely all religious figures would do just as well without technology, the rest of us fade with the carvings of our headstones.

I can only end by saying that Earth will be around a long time, no matter how good or bad we treat it. It may take longer for it to repair damage caused by malicious damage we inflict, likely no more harm has been done by man than what China is doing industrially today, but even that can be absorbed, filtered and processed by this wonderful blessing called Earth. Scary to think that some day, someone more bent on destruction could do worse harm, even cataclysmic harm. I know Earth can defend itself against slow and steady harm from mankind, but weapons that countries like North Korea, Iran, the USA and any country who wants to pay enough to possess could start a chain reaction that would wipe out nearly all life, but a billion or two years later, Earth will be the Eden it once was - I don't believe we can kill it long term, and a few billion years to Earth is no worse than us pulling an eight hour work day.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2009, 02:31:04 PM »

But we are creatures who are here but a century at best with gathered data only a few hundred years old and of course we toss it the speculative data of deep ice cores, tree rings on great old trees and then the real speculation begins....

The problem really seems to be that we humans live too short a life and I think it is natural for us to assume that soemething, good or bad or Biblical in nature because we hope that our existance makes a difference....

I can only end by saying that Earth will be around a long time, no matter how good or bad we treat it. It may take longer for it to repair damage caused by malicious damage we inflict, likely no more harm has been done by man than what China is doing industrially today, but even that can be absorbed, filtered and processed by this wonderful blessing called Earth.

Not to mention that we have only been able to reliably measure greenhouse gases in our atmosphere for a little over 50 years.

Yes, I do believe Earth will be around for a long time yet to come, and although I don't advocate destruction, what mankind has done and is doing is but a drop in the bucket compared to natural catastrophes, and the planet always rebounds. I personally think much of the ado is about human ego and the belief that we are much more important than we really are. This is but a temporary home for all of us, and we should strive to minimize whatever little damage we  do, but we can't stop human innovation and creativity, nor should we.
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« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2009, 11:57:34 PM »

Not to mention that we have only been able to reliably measure greenhouse gases in our atmosphere for a little over 50 years.

Except that we have this great time-capsule of atmospheric data ranging back hundreds of thousands of years... the air bubbles trapped in the ice sheets at the poles offer a great sampling of the atmosphere all the way back to several hundreds of thousands of years ago. 

Yes, I do believe Earth will be around for a long time yet to come

Earth will be around for a few billion more years, it's humans that stand a decent chance of not being here in a couple hundred years.

and although I don't advocate destruction, what mankind has done and is doing is but a drop in the bucket compared to natural catastrophes, and the planet always rebounds. I personally think much of the ado is about human ego and the belief that we are much more important than we really are. This is but a temporary home for all of us, and we should strive to minimize whatever little damage we  do, but we can't stop human innovation and creativity, nor should we.

True, the earth has sustained countless asteroid impacts, but every time it comes through a major catastrphe, the remaining life usualy isn't the same. 

And no one's stopping innovation or creativity, no one on either side of this issue is doing that, so that has nothin to do with this... in fact, much of the innovation in the past 20 years has been eco-friendly innovations.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2009, 12:40:53 AM »

Its called sarcasm, Sarge.  You mentioned the sea level change due to global warming.  Why not the lakes too?


Because lakes are local, so there might be a drought or flood that affects lake levels, but the ocean is a worldwide body of water, so while Michigan or California might be experiencing a drought or flood, that has no effect on ocean levels.  One thing is for sure, the amount of water on this planet is not growing very much (at least not by enough to be measured), so any change in the ocean's level can only be achieved by either adding to, or melting the ice that sits above sea level. 

But...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png

Hmm....look linear to me since 1900.  Before airplanes and cars were common.  If I apply the same global warming reasoning to the Great Lakes as they are to the sea level change, we're doomed.  12 inches per year!  Yes, I am being silly. 

Yes you are being silly, because that graph shows how sea levels have been rising since a little after 1900, around the time of the industrial revolution.   Go ahead and match it up with the global temperature graph on the right a little below it… the temperature there began warming at the same time. 

<GASP> NEWSFLASH!!  THIS JUST IN!!  The SUN, that giant orb of burning plasma in the sky actually can have an effect on earth!!!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/06/04/nasa-goddard-study-suggests-solar-variation-plays-a-role-in-our-current-climate/

Silly me...and here I thought that all that carbon dioxide was stifling the the sun's spots.


This just in!  The Sun’s not getting any warmer… and there were no more sunspots over the last decade than there were in the 1940’s.  While solar maximum and minimum do play a role in how warm we get, it’s an 11 year cycle, so instead of that graph that shows temperatures rising since the industrial revolution, we should see a graph that resembles a sine-wave.  But we're not seeing that because our activities have caused a situation in which periods of diminished sunspot activities are being counteracted by additional greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.

Oh, one other thing… this is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_minimum

“Prompted by these numbers, some observers suggested that the solar cycle had hit bottom in 2008. Maybe not. Sunspot counts for 2009 have dropped even lower. “

If we’re this hot with the fewest sunspots in the cycle, how much hotter do you think we’ll be when we’re at solar maximum?
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Bodo
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« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2009, 09:37:28 AM »

Explain to me how come Mars is losing its icecaps too?  It's gotta be CO2 emissions from our landing craft right?

Evidence is telling us that something else is causing Mars, Earth and the other planets to warm also.  How come Man and CO2 is always the answer?  98% of the greenhouse effect is caused by water vapor.  We're worried about a percentage of a percentage point with slightly increased CO2?

Could someone please tell me what the 'right' temperature for the Earth is supposed to be?

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« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2009, 10:00:49 AM »

  How come Man and CO2 is always the answer? 


It's a control issue. Wink
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« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »


Could someone please tell me what the 'right' temperature for the Earth is supposed to be?


Imo, 70 degrees F is just about right.  Smiley
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« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2009, 11:20:26 AM »

  How come Man and CO2 is always the answer? 


It's a control issue. Wink
my garden says 'thanks for the cO2 - it's a breath of fresh air.'

Could someone please tell me what the 'right' temperature for the Earth is supposed to be?


Imo, 70 degrees F is just about right.  Smiley

I would say 78*; with azure seas, coconut palms, a light south breeze, and a nice cool drink.
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« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2009, 11:52:56 AM »


I would say 78*; with azure seas, coconut palms, a light south breeze, and a nice cool drink.

I think your idea is better than my idea. grin
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« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2009, 01:51:09 PM »


Quote
I would say 78*; with azure seas, coconut palms, a light south breeze, and a nice cool drink.

Can it be an adult beverage?  Cold is required though!
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dragonfly
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« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2009, 02:51:33 PM »

Can it be an adult beverage?  Cold is required though!

Hah, I had already assumed it was. grin
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2009, 02:59:32 PM »

 huh there's cold beach drinks that come without rum?
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« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2009, 03:23:18 PM »

Speaking of Cold...

http://www.kxmc.com/News/386720.asp

Snow falls in western ND, in June
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« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2009, 04:37:47 PM »

Maybe if the globe warms,we can grow a rainforest in PA.Wouldn't that solve all the worlds problems?And we can drink those drinks here in a hut with a thatched roof.
 In theory,if the globe warms,we should need a lot less fossil fuel to heat our homes.Man has always struggled to stay warm.maybe our problems are solved.
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