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Author Topic: I think I have a laying worker help  (Read 2310 times)
blckoakbees
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« on: May 28, 2009, 04:59:24 AM »

I have one hive which I think I have a laying worker in.  I can not find a queen.  There are a lot of drone cells and drones.  I put some a frame of brood from another hive and a new queen.  I can not find the new queen.  What should I do?  Is there any hope or is this hive just going to die.  It had a queen and lots of brood earlier this spring and then we had a cold snap in late March.
 
The hive has several frames of capped honey.  Advice is appreciate. I have several other hives.  This hive was a split last fall and did well over the winter and was busting out in February.

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Scadsobees
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 08:26:22 AM »

Uh oh...laying worker hives don't like new queens.

Any queen cells on the frame of brood you put in there?  Oftentimes they will start queen cells when given brood.  You can try to keep giving them frames of eggs and see what they do.  Or if you have a queen cell you can put that in there and often they will accept that.

Or you can make a split from another hive, wait till that is queenright, and then replace the LW hive with the split and shake all the bees out a ways in front of the split.  If I have more than 2 hives that is probably what I'd do now.  I succeeded with the queen cell, but it was hardly worth it except I only had 2 hives at the time.

Rick
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Rick
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 08:37:06 AM »

I had a laying worker hive last year and (i think it was on here) someone told me to get either a new queen or a frame of eggs/brood.  Take the entire hive a couple of hundred yards away and shake all the bees onto the ground, brush them off all the combs and put them back into a covered hive so they cannot get into it.  Once all the bees are gone from the hive and comb take it all back to the original hive location place your new brrod or new queen 9in her cage) into the hive.  All the other bees you dumped will be already there or on their way back

The idea is that the laying owrker never left the hive so she wont be able to find her way back to the original hive but the workers know their way back and will return.  It worked well for me and I got rid of my laying worker.
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jdpro5010
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 10:32:16 AM »

Shaking them out ( couple hundred yards from hive location) is the only method I have tried and it did work.  I also believe Robo has a special queen intro frame that he says works.  Shoot him a line and see what he says> grin
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 05:45:10 PM »

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
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Michael Bush
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wvbee
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 08:22:03 AM »

I believe that my hive also has multiple laying workers or a unmated queen.  My hive  swarmed, it had a few queen cells in it, so I let them rear a new queen.  But now after 1-2 weeks with this new queen I am seeing only drone brood.  Have not noticed multiple eggs in cells.  I was told to do the same thing as wildbeekeeper, but to direct release the queen in the empty hive.  The returning bees would pick up her scent and  accept her.  Any laying worker or unmated queen would not be able to fly back to the hive because they are loaded with eggs. 
Wildbeekeeper, what did you do, was is successful?
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BillyMac
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 11:05:24 AM »

Hi,
I am a new beek. I had the same problem.  No queen and only drones being made.  I tried requeening with a queen bought from out of state at a cost of about $60 (mostly shipping).  The queen seemed to be doing well but after about a week the hive killed her.  I found a local beek who brought a nuc with queen to my house. He looked at the hive and determined it to be a laying worker. We shook out the bees, put nuc frames with queen in hive and it seems to have worked.  I looked in the hive two days ago(about a week from when we shook out the bees)  and have capped worker brood and saw the queen doing her thing!!  Good Luck!!  I hope this helps.
BillyMac
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shemer
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 03:18:55 AM »

I know that it`s virtually impossible to requeen a colony with laying worker. But I have read somewhere that if you put all your bees to sleep (temporatily, by smoking your hive heavily with something I don`t rememeber what), and while they sleep install a cage with the new queen, problem can be solved.

Anyone heard that?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 06:32:33 AM »

A frame of open brood every week for three weeks will resolve the issue.  No need to anesthetize the bees and risk killing them all.  Even a frame of open brood a few days before introducing a queen makes a world of difference in acceptance, and another when you do the introduction doesn't hurt.  A push in cage helps as well.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#ValuableQueen
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#pushincage
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The%20Push-in-the-Comb%20Cage

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Michael Bush
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Joelel
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 09:41:06 AM »

I know that it`s virtually impossible to requeen a colony with laying worker. But I have read somewhere that if you put all your bees to sleep (temporatily, by smoking your hive heavily with something I don`t rememeber what), and while they sleep install a cage with the new queen, problem can be solved.

Anyone heard that?
 

I won't smoke them,too much smoke could give them smoke inhalation and kill them.
  Two months ago I did a shakeout with a worker laying hive and introduced a queen at the same time. They excepted her.
  This is my thought that I will try next time I do a shake out to make them except a new queen better. Spraying them with sugar water covers up their scent and I figure,as you shake them,shake them in a tub and spray them with sugar water,put the queen in the hive sprayed with sugar water and when they come back to the hive,they have a queen.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
BruinnieBear
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 12:08:38 PM »

Before I learned about the shake-out method, I had a hive that went LW.  Being advised by the older curmudgeons in my club that a LW hive was "about impossible to requeen", I almost gave up hope.  Not wanting to lose my investment, I did some investigating and found a potential solution (pictured below).

I purchased a mated queen with attendants ( By the time I caught on to what was going on, there were was no new eggs for the new hive to build a new queen and it was too early in the season to find any queen cells in other hives.), and inserted it into the queen cage.  The information I found with the eliminator called for leaving the queen in the cage for 10-14 days, while she would be fed thru the screen and the LW's would be assasinated.

Long story short, it worked!  After two weeks, I released the plug to let her loose.  When I checked four days later, she was out and the the cage was filled with workers, seemingly still attracted to her phermone.

During the time she was caged, bees covered the screen to the point I was concerned about proper ventilation.  Observing the coup d'tat that must have been taking place in the hive, I saw otherwise healthy looking dead bees being hauled out ( the LW's?).  In addition, they had built about five inches of hanging comb below the cage, encouraging ( I quess) her to come out and lay.

To be honest, it took another two weeks before I was convinced she was laying well, and I did place some capped brood from a strong hive in there to maintain the population.  Today it's one of my stronger hives.  Admittedly, this strategy is time consuming, and it might be too late in the season for it to be a viable option, but it's an option that I'm going to consider in the future for making splits.

All the old-timers could say was, "Hhrrump!  Must of got lucky, s'all!"





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BjornBee
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 12:48:55 PM »

I know that it`s virtually impossible to requeen a colony with laying worker. But I have read somewhere that if you put all your bees to sleep (temporatily, by smoking your hive heavily with something I don`t rememeber what), and while they sleep install a cage with the new queen, problem can be solved.

Anyone heard that?

Hey, sure! Why not... I dunno  Sounds as good as some of the other ideas I have heard about re-queening a laying worker colony.

It ranks up there with.....

Shake out the bees. Like laying workers are not supposed to fly. It works about  5% of the time, and then is touted as some method beekeepers should rely on....NOT!

Or: Install a frame or two of brood from another hive for a couple weeks. No wait, that should be "for a few weeks" or maybe even "all summer until you get tired of doing this, or you have weakened your other hives and robbed them of their resources."

I'll just keep combining them, allowing the queenright colony to expand their brood chamber, her pheromones to shut the laying workers down, and then break apart the much stronger "whole" into two smaller hives, which will be way stronger in the long run....instead of all those other options that take forever, rob the colonies, and can perpetuate all summer.

I think there is another thread where a beekeeper has been placing frames of brood into a laying worker colony now for several weeks. It is to a point he feels uncomfortable in robbing his other hives of their resources. What a waste. But it makes for a good read.
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shemer
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »

I know that it`s virtually impossible to requeen a colony with laying worker. But I have read somewhere that if you put all your bees to sleep (temporatily, by smoking your hive heavily with something I don`t rememeber what), and while they sleep install a cage with the new queen, problem can be solved.

Anyone heard that?
 

I won't smoke them,too much smoke could give them smoke inhalation and kill them.
  Two months ago I did a shakeout with a worker laying hive and introduced a queen at the same time. They excepted her.
  This is my thought that I will try next time I do a shake out to make them except a new queen better. Spraying them with sugar water covers up their scent and I figure,as you shake them,shake them in a tub and spray them with sugar water,put the queen in the hive sprayed with sugar water and when they come back to the hive,they have a queen.

I like it. what concentration of sugar should be acceptable in sugar water?  how far did you place a tub from your hive?
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shemer
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2009, 01:19:26 AM »


 it might be too late in the season for it to be a viable option


that`s what I am concerned of, but going to try anyway, you never know what future brings
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shemer
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2009, 01:23:39 AM »


even "all summer until you get tired of doing this, or you have weakened your other hives and robbed them of their resources."


 grin
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shemer
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2009, 01:28:23 AM »


I won't smoke them,too much smoke could give them smoke inhalation and kill them.


well, may be I was wrong and they didn`t use smoke but some substance that is harmless while powerfull to bees... like sleeping pills for humans.
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shemer
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 01:31:39 AM »

Even a frame of open brood a few days before introducing a queen makes a world of difference in acceptance, and another when you do the introduction doesn't hurt.  a push in cage helps as well.


ohh i like that. what concerns me though isn`t that too late robbing other nests of their brood in late August?
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Joelel
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 04:10:30 PM »

I know that it`s virtually impossible to requeen a colony with laying worker. But I have read somewhere that if you put all your bees to sleep (temporatily, by smoking your hive heavily with something I don`t rememeber what), and while they sleep install a cage with the new queen, problem can be solved.

Anyone heard that?
 

I won't smoke them,too much smoke could give them smoke inhalation and kill them.
  Two months ago I did a shakeout with a worker laying hive and introduced a queen at the same time. They excepted her.
  This is my thought that I will try next time I do a shake out to make them except a new queen better. Spraying them with sugar water covers up their scent and I figure,as you shake them,shake them in a tub and spray them with sugar water,put the queen in the hive sprayed with sugar water and when they come back to the hive,they have a queen.

I like it. what concentration of sugar should be acceptable in sugar water?  how far did you place a tub from your hive?

I was taught,when you introduce a new queen to a hive,you spray her or when you hive a package,you spray all of them with sugar water,it covers their scent and they receive the queen much better. I use just 50/50.
  I figure it will do the same with a shake out.I said I will try it next time. I got a big wash tub,I'll just put it about 50 ft. away ,then take a frame at a time and shake them off and have someone spray them as they fall. Set the frames aside in a holder. After I do the last one I'll put the frames all back in order they came out and spray the queen and attendants in the cage and put them in the hive and let them in there a couple of days to see if they accept her,then open the cage. See when they all start flying back in,they will see they have a queen with a scent they can't tell.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2009, 04:19:43 PM »

just shake the darn things out and let them join your other hives.  DO NOT let them go back to their own hive.  if it were earlier in the year, the queen introducer things are reported to work well, but you don't have time to mess with that now with winter coming.  you'd need a build up or they won't survive and you don't have the couple of months for it.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Joelel
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2009, 04:26:13 PM »

If he's in southern Calif. he has time.
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Acts2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation
kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2009, 05:20:53 PM »

he's not.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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