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Author Topic: Something's wrong with today's government.  (Read 10994 times)

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2009, 02:45:59 PM »
The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. Research Supremacy Clause.
Would that it were applied that way. As it is Precident in case law is held to be Supreme. So any "mistake" gets propagated ito many many other areas before it can ever be corrected...if ever.
And the most recent nominee for SCOTUS is a Champion for the continuation of this practice.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2009, 02:49:09 PM »
i think you read it right.

i think i need to go to costco for a double pack of ibuprofen.   :(
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2009, 02:49:59 PM »
oh...and something to repair the wall plaster..........
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2009, 03:00:31 PM »
oh...and something to repair the wall plaster..........

Sorry. Had to laugh at that one.
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Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2009, 03:06:43 PM »
And you want all other rights to be trampled on as much as the 2nd amendment has?   :?


LOL. No what I "want" is quite the opposite. But I'm not naive enough to ignore what "is" either.

What "is" isn't always legal... that's why we have courts... and if push came to shove and some of these laws were actually challenged, I think you'd find many of them being tossed out.

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2009, 03:32:42 PM »

What "is" isn't always legal... that's why we have courts... and if push came to shove and some of these laws were actually challenged, I think you'd find many of them being tossed out.
What I had rather is that they had been tossed out before they got enacted.
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
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Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2009, 03:39:14 PM »

What "is" isn't always legal... that's why we have courts... and if push came to shove and some of these laws were actually challenged, I think you'd find many of them being tossed out.
What I had rather is that they had been tossed out before they got enacted.

Wouldn't we all, unfortunately that takes effort, which is something the pro-gun movement doesn't seem to want to donate any of.

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2009, 04:01:55 PM »
Wouldn't we all, unfortunately that takes effort, which is something the pro-gun movement doesn't seem to want to donate any of.
Well that, and a procedural change that would force a Judiciary Constitutional challenge on all points before enactment
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
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Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2009, 04:10:13 AM »
Wouldn't we all, unfortunately that takes effort, which is something the pro-gun movement doesn't seem to want to donate any of.
Well that, and a procedural change that would force a Judiciary Constitutional challenge on all points before enactment

Now THAT's a great idea!

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2009, 02:34:25 AM »

Then Brian seemed to point out that we are citizens of the state we reside in and not a citizen of the USA and therefore that does not apply to us.


The United States in this instance doesn't mean every state it means the Federal Government.  Washington DC is the United States as is Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, etc.  Therefore citizens of the United States are those naturalized (being specially named such, not being a citizen of a state) or resident of National lands, territories, and districts.  Natural born Citizens of the individual states are United States Nationals.  If you were born in Washington DC, or one of the territories or possessions then you were born an United States Citizen.
IE: I am a natural born citizen of the State of Washington, and a United States National.
American Indians are Citizens of their respective tribe and United States Nationals, except where a treaty specifically made them United States Citizens.

States can't pass laws that change the status of a Naturalized United States Citizen.

What I was pointing out is that the Federal Government does not have the power to enact laws that are in the privilege of the States and its citizens.  If the Federal Government passes laws that encroach upon States Rights then those laws do not apply to the Citizens of the respective States since it does not have the Constitutional powers to inforce such laws. 
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2009, 01:21:04 PM »

What I was pointing out is that the Federal Government does not have the power to enact laws that are in the privilege of the States and its citizens.  If the Federal Government passes laws that encroach upon States Rights then those laws do not apply to the Citizens of the respective States since it does not have the Constitutional powers to inforce such laws. 
And yet they do it all the time, and enforce those same laws with a vengeance, and will continue to do so until such a time as the law gets successfully challenged at the Supreme Court level and officially overturned. Which often means decades of Unconstitutional action put upon the citizens who have no immediate relief.
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2009, 02:07:18 PM »
Quote
law gets successfully challenged at the Supreme Court level


which doesn't happen because the states are money bleep.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline kathyp

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2009, 02:13:14 PM »
the bleep refers to the worlds oldest profession.  guess i should have known that word wouldn't pass   :-D
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2009, 05:39:18 PM »
the bleep refers to the worlds oldest profession.  guess i should have known that word wouldn't pass   :-D
I knew what you meant. :D
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
- Marcus Aurelius -

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2009, 04:37:01 PM »
True, that's the real world, but according to our founding fathers we don't have to obey an unconstitutional law.  So let's make a clarification, via amendment, to the Constitution that we don't have to obey a law until the Courts have ruled on it's Constitutionality. 
Tht would definitely require congress to be more careful in enacting legilation as well as giving the fair citizens both a warning and breathing room before a law becomes affective.

I also wonder what the Supreme court would do with a case involving relevence in legislation.  I.E. Requiring the subject matter of any legislation to be pertinent to the subject of enactment.  That would preclulde end run amendments of sticking in a clause governing banking on one pretaining to agriculture.  It would be a much simpler world with no piggy backing. :flyingpig:
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline Vibe

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2009, 11:37:20 AM »
I also wonder what the Supreme court would do with a case involving relevence in legislation.  I.E. Requiring the subject matter of any legislation to be pertinent to the subject of enactment.  That would preclulde end run amendments of sticking in a clause governing banking on one pretaining to agriculture.  It would be a much simpler world with no piggy backing. :flyingpig:
Something like this?
Quote
Confederate States Constitution
Article 1,Section 9
20. Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title.
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.
- Marcus Aurelius -

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2009, 03:44:44 PM »
Quote
law gets successfully challenged at the Supreme Court level


which doesn't happen because the states are money bleep.

Did you mean money horse???  :-D
Rick

Offline JazzGirlie17

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2009, 05:00:49 AM »
What then is government? Government is nothing more than the formalization of the social contract itself. Instead of an unconscious implicit agreement it is an explicit formal one. We call this formalization "the State" and the individual elements of the agreement "the Law". This observation should lead us to conclude that the State has two equal purposes. The first is to provide a collective will and strength for services for its citizens for their common good. Services which they would be unable to accomplish as individuals acting solely on their own. The second is to protect the security and the individual civil rights of each and every citizen. In a free and democratic State this responsibility rests with the citizens of the State themselves. The government of a democratic State is not the representatives elected nor is it appointed officials who act in the capacity of governing, rather it is the people themselves. Representatives and government officers serve as a consequence of the collective will of the citizens of a free State and are therefore merely agents of the common will.

Offline mick

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2009, 07:00:17 AM »
Theres something wrong with all of em.

After the War there was a gradual change from citizens who wanted to serve the people and their country, to businessmen who wanted to be politicians for the hell of it and professional politicians, people who have never done an honest days work in their lives. We have all gone from governments who serve to governments who rule.

In the future, there will be a global civil war. Society will be reshuffled, I am sure of it. Twenty years time, no more.

We have to wait until todays generation of youth reaches the age of 50 before some of them can influence things. Sure there are ratbags, but I have great faith in the youth of today. It will be those born in the 90s who will have the ability to change society like never before. Clean and green is on the way, and of course all the social policies you like. maybe its worth a try because nothings working. Before they get in, the world will have gone to hell. Its halfway there already. Politics has gotten us into this mess, not religion.

The ultimate end of the Capitalist system is meant to be economies of scale that end up in free production and free sale. Well you dont have to be Einstein to realise politicians have proved that wrong, supporting dud companies and their mates for graft and corruption. Corporate greed fueled by back room deals and lobbyists has ruined the western world.

The aim of those in power today is to produce the sci fi horror story of two classes of society. Rich and poor. Where do you think all the trillions of  dollars have gone? They havent been burnt in a fire, someones got them in their pocket.

As a society, we need to stop voting for these besturds who are in it for themselves and their mates. We need to rise up and reject the dumbing down of society by the media. We need to go back to basics at schools and teach people to think.

We need to have the technology of the 21st century but the moral values and personal ambitions, dreams and standards of respect of the 1940s or 50s or even the 60s. Things went to custard in the 80s and have gotten worse.

Governments rule so much of our lives, so many taxes and fees and charges and licenses and general interference, I doubt anyone could go through life without "ending up in the system" for one reason or another. Just think of all the government departments that exist that we could do without? Life would go on as normal if 60% of government employees all over the world vanished. I check if your cat is registered, you check if I am registering everything, you report to she who checks if you made any errors and she reports to he who ckecks if all the shes in the state have done their job. He reports to someone who takes his statistics. Theres a team of people to check in the field if pussie has a tag, a team of people who take away pus if it hasnt got one, another team to care for them, another team to deal with the release, another team who register it and another team who checks to see if it is registered and on and on the cycle goes. People who do nothing, but whos result generates a business funded by revenue from the government.

Look at your tax bill. I know I could walk into any government office, remove one photocopier and say thats my taxes times 5.

The government says that all there $billions makes the economy go around. Well how about you go away and stop taking my money in taxes and I spend it on things I want to make the economy go around?

Governments should build roads and schools and hospitals and public infrastructure, provide security for the people, health, education, some pensions, protect natural resources and not much else. Most of the rest is just rubbish we dont need and can do without.

Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Something's wrong with today's government.
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2009, 09:56:34 AM »
Governments should build roads and schools and hospitals and public infrastructure, provide security for the people, health, education, some pensions, protect natural resources and not much else. Most of the rest is just rubbish we dont need and can do without.

To provide the security most people want they have to watch my every move to make sure I am not going to hurt you and they have to watch your every move to make sure you aren't going to hurt me.

To keep expenses down on health care they have to tell you how to live and what to eat.

So they build the roads schools and hospitals and you want better roads schools and hospitals.

That is the problem right there. People want the governments to do all this stuff for them but they don't want the government in their life  :?

People use to take care of their own education but somewhere they decided the government needed to do it. I'd be willing to bet there were medical practitioners before there were license to practice medicine. People just one day decided they needed the government to protect them from quacks. Then they turn over more and ask for more.

And so it goes on and on. For everything in your life. You don't want someone driving up and down your street at 150 mph so you get the government to control that.

People keep asking their various governments for all kinds of things and then they act surprised when the government wants to control every aspect of your life.
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