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Author Topic: I think I saw him squirm  (Read 3374 times)
dragonfly
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« on: May 20, 2009, 09:52:12 PM »

I was shocked when I saw a segment of the press conference given by the prez and Benjamin Netanyahu. I've never seen the prez look like he was on the defensive, but I think he was after his meeting with the Israeli PM.  Obama looked like he wanted to become one with his chair, and would not look at Netanyahu even when referring to him.   The prime minister had a definite assertive sitting posture and a direct eye on the prez.

Sorry guys, if it bores any of you, but psychological and sociological signals and behaviors are a special interest of mine. This was a fascinating look at personal interaction and reaction.
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 10:02:18 PM »

i noticed that also.  he was all hunched in and looked like he'd rather be anywhere else.  i don't think he's used to people disagreeing with him.  my guess is that old bebe gave him a straight forward opinion of obamas mid-east plans. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 10:09:56 PM »

Not only a straight-forward opinion, but perhaps an ultimatum. Wink
I find Bibi's no-nonsense approach refreshing in the world of politics. Smiley He seems to be a man who says what he means and is willing to back it up.
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 10:15:16 PM »

is it bibi or bebe?  i find it spelled both way.  yours looks right(er)  grin.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2009, 10:25:46 PM »

From what I understand, the actual original spelling of his name is Binyamin. I think that is where the Bibi came from, but I'm not certain. That's just how I have seen it spelled. Your spelling may actually be the correct one. My own personal tendency is Benjie. grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2009, 10:38:44 PM »

uhhh, his name is spelled in hebrew...any english writing of it is a transliteration.....no wrong spelling.

i didn't see the exchange, but i can imagine it.  i like netanyahu, and i have some hope that he is enough of a hardass to change the dynamic in the middle east for the better.

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dragonfly
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 10:49:49 PM »


i didn't see the exchange, but i can imagine it.  i like netanyahu, and i have some hope that he is enough of a hardass to change the dynamic in the middle east for the better.


I like him too, and have held him in high regard for quite some time. I hope your are right about his ability to change the ME dynamic. My fear is that we (as in our nation) won't support one our most loyal friends in the world (as in Israel) as things stand today.

Btw, I realize his given name is in Hebrew, but I've seen the Binyamin spelling as a translation by Israelis. I just figured Europeans changed it to the English Biblical translation spelling.
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 11:01:45 PM »

yes, i think there is a wide gap between the reality of living in (and governing/protecting) israel and how many (including the new administration) would like things to be.  the u.n. has been lousy on all fronts.

the good news is that i don't think that in the big poker game being played, that netanyahu is at all intimidated or feels constrained.  obama may well be good for israel in these times, as in a way, it's hands seem untied (especially considering the recent iranian missle test).

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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 11:04:12 PM »

I'd gladly search for footage  - anyone know the date of the conference?
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 11:13:14 PM »

A sizeable portion of the UN is blatantly anti-Semitic. As far as I am concerned, that organization needs to be disbanded altogether.

You may be right that Netanyahu feels unconstrained, which is a good thing imo, but Israel is completely surrounded by her enemies, who would like to see Israel destroyed. Although they are militarily excellent and unafraid, I'm not sure how they can take on an all-out assault on that many fronts. It's not that I expect that, but I have no faith in the reasonableness of many leaders in the ME in the event that things get heated up.
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dragonfly
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 11:14:41 PM »

I'd gladly search for footage  - anyone know the date of the conference?

I believe it was yesterday, but I'm not certain.
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2009, 11:20:26 PM »

well, that's exactly what they did in '67....and they have nucs.

the only way to win this that i see is to simply build a wall.  every rocket, homocide bomber or other attack gets a consistent and completely disproportionate response.  no outrage, no scrambling to figure out what to do, just a detached and automatic response.

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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2009, 11:31:05 PM »

I'd gladly search for footage  - anyone know the date of the conference?

I believe it was yesterday, but I'm not certain.

Ok, I'd have to know the network too, it seems that whenever Netanyahu spoke with a degree of assertion, the camera was not to be found pointing at Obama. (I doubt it's a coincidence) - I searched in you tube and watched as much as  I could stand. - then I wound up lost in al jazeera english.
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2009, 11:40:35 PM »

It's not Israel's nucs I am worried about. It's the general trend of taking a passive stance  in the European world over the past 40-50 years.
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2009, 11:47:50 PM »


Ok, I'd have to know the network too, it seems that whenever Netanyahu spoke with a degree of assertion, the camera was not to be found pointing at Obama.

The segment I saw was not of Netanyahu speaking. The only one doing the talking was Obama. Apparently, after their private meeting, there was a news conference and Obama was droning on about the need to achieve a peace agreement in the ME. During this conference, he referred to Netahyahu, and pointed in his direction, but did not look at him. Netanyahu, otoh, sat forward in his chair with a direct glance toward Obama during the entire time segment I saw. It  really appeared quite strained on Obama's part. Not at all what we are used to seeing.
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 11:57:42 PM »

the only way to win this that i see is to simply build a wall.  every rocket, homocide bomber or other attack gets a consistent and completely disproportionate response.  no outrage, no scrambling to figure out what to do, just a detached and automatic response.


I agree. The problem is that the majority of the world these days can't handle detached and automatic. Most of the media portrays Israelis as agressors when they defend their own people and their borders. They play on the emotions of people who are ignorant of the history of the Jewish state. 
What is your personal opinion of a two-state solution?
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2009, 12:13:13 AM »

you have to have honest brokers on both sides for a solution.  since the "palestinians" do not have an honest broker, and hamas seems to hold sway with most of the people, i see no solution.  also, it is not in the best interest of the other arab states for their to be a solution.  as long as there is a palestinian problem to point the radical toward, the heat can be deflected from the more moderate arab states.  it was the surrounding arab states that caused the problem in the first place, but they have been successful in re-writing history for their own benefit.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2009, 12:15:26 AM »

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=obama+netinyahoo+press+conference&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&q=obama+netanyahu+press+conference

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22317300/diplomatic-agenda.htm#q=obama+netanyahu+press+conference

this has some interesting angles also.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2009, 01:29:23 AM »

Actually I hate to speak up in palestine's defense, but Sharon was sneaky and antagonistic. (the wall that crept into palestine about [5?] miles)

having said that Netanyahu is a new guy and deserves a fair chance.
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2009, 08:02:19 AM »

BiBi has been around the neighborhood ( Politically and Militarily speaking ) quite a few times, Barack, on the other hand, is an infant and will never ( grow up ) and have the Courage to stand up to face the situations that BiBi or any Statesman has encountered in the past, present, and future. Israel will do whatever it takes to survive with or without us.
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2009, 08:50:49 AM »

Actually I hate to speak up in palestine's defense, but Sharon was sneaky and antagonistic. (the wall that crept into palestine about [5?] miles)


I understand what you are saying, but I would be rather antagonistic too if I was surrounded by people who wanted nothing less than the total destruction of my and my people.
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« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2009, 09:53:19 AM »

There was once a time when the Israelis and Palestinians have coexisted in relative peace, what happened ?
Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO ( not in that order) they have done nothing to help the cause of their own people but to brainwash hate into them and sacrifice them for their own agenda, not to mention the millions of dollars they received in aid squandered. Israel has the right to exist as well as the Palestinians, but the rest of the Arab world likes to use them as pawns.

Obama nor Hillary will fix this, nobody can on the outside. Only Israel and the Palestanians without outside influence just might be able to pull it off. ( My 2 Cents )
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2009, 10:16:01 AM »

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There was once a time when the Israelis and Palestinians have coexisted in relative peace, what happened ?


there are a lot of components, but i'll try to give you the short version.

in the early 20th century, Russian and some European Jews began to migrate back to the area known as Palestine.  this is the biblical and historical site of the nation of Israel.  there were not many Arabs in the area because the land sucked.  the Jews that came in and the Arabs that lived there did work together to reclaim land, build stuff, etc.  the area was controlled by the Brits and no one really cared about it.

post ww2, the Brits agreed to turn the area over.  the Arab countries were directed to divide the land 25% to Israel, 75% to the "Palestinians".  at this point, i put Palestinian in quotes because there were a bunch of Muslims in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, who had decided that the Arab countries needed to be united as the nation of Palestine.  they called themselves "Palestinians" and they were a real problem for the Arab countries. (and Egypt)

the Arab countries needed a place to dump these people.  at the same time, they were really ticked off that Israel had successfully established itself.  they promised the entire area of Palestine to the "Palestinians" and other Muslims, and attacked Israel.  that didn't work well.  they were left with people they needed to dump.  no promised land to dump them.  bad PR after losing to a piddly little bunch of Jews.

the Arab countries also had a growing terrorism problems in their own countries.  the Islamist movement was growing and it was aimed at Arab governments that were deemed "westernized".  the solution for those Arab countries was to use the Palestinian plight, which these governments had helped create, as a distraction.  they pointed the terrorists at Israel, and countries that supported Israel.  out of these groups came the leaders of Al-Qaeda and all those you mentioned.

that's a pretty abbreviated history, but.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2009, 11:08:02 AM »

Quote
There was once a time when the Israelis and Palestinians have coexisted in relative peace, what happened ?


there are a lot of components, but i'll try to give you the short version.

in the early 20th century, Russian and some European Jews began to migrate back to the area known as Palestine.  this is the biblical and historical site of the nation of Israel.  there were not many Arabs in the area because the land sucked.  the Jews that came in and the Arabs that lived there did work together to reclaim land, build stuff, etc.  the area was controlled by the Brits and no one really cared about it.

post ww2, the Brits agreed to turn the area over.  the Arab countries were directed to divide the land 25% to Israel, 75% to the "Palestinians".  at this point, i put Palestinian in quotes because there were a bunch of Muslims in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, who had decided that the Arab countries needed to be united as the nation of Palestine.  they called themselves "Palestinians" and they were a real problem for the Arab countries. (and Egypt)

the Arab countries needed a place to dump these people.  at the same time, they were really ticked off that Israel had successfully established itself.  they promised the entire area of Palestine to the "Palestinians" and other Muslims, and attacked Israel.  that didn't work well.  they were left with people they needed to dump.  no promised land to dump them.  bad PR after losing to a piddly little bunch of Jews.

the Arab countries also had a growing terrorism problems in their own countries.  the Islamist movement was growing and it was aimed at Arab governments that were deemed "westernized".  the solution for those Arab countries was to use the Palestinian plight, which these governments had helped create, as a distraction.  they pointed the terrorists at Israel, and countries that supported Israel.  out of these groups came the leaders of Al-Qaeda and all those you mentioned.

that's a pretty abbreviated history, but.....


Yes  Smiley

Some folks don't believe it, but there are Muslim Communities inside the borders of Israel living in harmony, you just don't hear about it.  Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2009, 11:12:34 AM »

i think many people do not understand that Palestinian refers to two different groups.  the original residents of the area of Palestine and the members of the Palestinian movement, who were not from the area.

unfortunately, the original Palestinians suffered because of the second group.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 11:38:47 AM »

I think the best example in the world of religious tolerance and freedom was Morocco; their marketplace(s) had people of all religions, basically providing services to each other that their faith considered wrong to do but not wrong to patronize. (lending money and charging interest for example). Each saw the other's value - I honestly can't say what morocco is like now, but it proves that with patience on all sides it can work.
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 01:14:20 PM »

  the original residents of the area of Palestine and the members of the Palestinian movement, who were not from the area.

unfortunately, the original Palestinians suffered because of the second group.

If I remember correctly, I believe I read that the "original" Palestinians were Syrian. huh Not sure, but it's what I recall.
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 01:18:27 PM »

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If I remember correctly, I believe I read that the "original" Palestinians were Syrian

many may have been.  they were more tribal. many nomadic herdsmen.  some had groves and farms where there was water.  it was tough land and there were not many permanent residents.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 01:25:28 PM »

I think the best example in the world of religious tolerance and freedom was Morocco; their marketplace(s) had people of all religions, basically providing services to each other that their faith considered wrong to do but not wrong to patronize.

I have one Moroccan acquaintance/friend. I've never asked him anything specific about his culture, but he seems fairly "westernized", wrt attitudes, acceptance of other cultural/religious practices, etc.
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2009, 05:01:32 PM »

Quote
If I remember correctly, I believe I read that the "original" Palestinians were Syrian

many may have been.  they were more tribal. many nomadic herdsmen.  some had groves and farms where there was water.  it was tough land and there were not many permanent residents.

During the war, between 700,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the areas that were later known as Israel in 1949
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2009, 05:37:29 PM »

Wiki has a pretty good page on the Palestinians, if you consider Wiki a legitimate source of information (which I realize some don't):

Quote
The Greek toponym Palaistinê (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[14] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[15][16] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[17] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic Samaritans led by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Bible).[18] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Plst or flst, Assyrian as Palastu, and the Hebraic as Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[19]
Syria Palestina continued to be used by historians and geographers and others to refer to the area between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river, as in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder. After the Romans adopted the term as the official administrative name for the region in the 2nd century AD, "Palestine" as a stand alone term came into widespread use, printed on coins, in inscriptions and even in rabbinic texts.
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2009, 05:45:33 PM »

your numbers may be correct.  the question is who where these Palestinians and why did they leave?  some were the original residents of the area of Palestine.  many were those from the Palestinian movement who had been encouraged to move or even expelled from Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.  

the reason the UN mandated the formation of a previously unknown Palestinian state along with the re-formation of the nation of Israel, is that the Arab countries were having a heck of a time with the Palestinian movement.  the goal of the movement was to create a unified Arab state under Islamic law.  the unified state would be known as Palestine.  their reasons were 1. that the Arab countries as they existed, were created by arbitrary borders drawn by imperialistic Europeans and 2.  that Arab countries had become to westernized and needed to come back to pure Islam.

a compromise solution was deemed to be the formation of a separate nation of Palestine, however, the Arab countries failed to create the nation.  they encouraged the folks to move into the area and even expelled the troublemakers into Palestine.  then they promised the "Palestinians" that when they destroyed the newly re-formed nation of Israel, the entire region would be given over as a Palestinian homeland.

when they lost the war, they had a bunch of folks with no home and a hostile Israel (with good reason).  basically a bunch of refugees who were not welcome in the Arab countries, were not welcome in Israel, and had no resources.  they also ended up with crappy leaders who sold them out, Arab countries that used them as fuel against Israel and the west, and now generations of brainwashing and hate.

there is no incentive on the part of the Arab countries to solve this problem. they have jihadist movements that threaten their own governments.  it is convenient to hold up the plight of the Palestinians as a distraction for these jihadists.  better to point them at Israel and anyone who supports Israel, than to have them destroy the governments of the Arab countries.

it would take a regional effort to solve the problem, but there is no heart for it.  if the people can not chose leadership that will work toward a solution instead of banking billions of aid dollars in France, there is no hope for the Palestinians.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 05:50:19 PM »

the area of Palestine was huge.  it was not a nation, but a region.  it would be the same as saying you live in the southwest.  you might live in AZ, but the region is the southwest.   
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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