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Author Topic: Small Cell Foundation  (Read 3116 times)
Rabbitdog
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« on: March 14, 2005, 12:19:58 PM »

I am considering starting my next hive on small cell foundation.  I have each colony on 1 deep, then 1 illinois super.  When honey time comes, I add up to 4 shallows.  I assume the only place to use small cell is in the brood box.  Or perhaps in the illinois (since queen sometimes lays up in the center frames when going strong).
If small cell controls mites well enough to eliminate the need for miticides, why wouldn't everyone be using it?  Are there any drawbacks?
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Beth Kirkley
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 04:26:24 PM »

That has been a very big (and heated) topic here in the forum. I absolutely KNOW you can find lots about it by doing a search.

Lots of long posts out there about small cell. Smiley

Beth
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Lesli
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2005, 07:14:42 PM »

If Michael Bush responds, he'll tell you to use small cell everywhere, I think.  Or he'll tell you to put in starter strips or blank frames to let the bees draw their own. Smiley This has come up in other places.

Bees do draw different size cells for different purposes. Not just worker-size and drone size. Last year, I put in some "blanks" and let the girls draw what they wanted. During the goldenrod flow, they built lots of wax, and lots of cells larger than drone size. They were in a hurry, and didn't want to waste time or wax.
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lively Bee's
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2005, 01:27:53 AM »

http://www.honeysupercell.com/6955.html

Ck this site out,  Just hope you get a better responce out of them then I did here is the info and email i sent

From me to them:
>I sent an email some time ago and never received a
>response. It problem never made it to you. I have
>been looking at you site for some time now and have
>some questions about your full drawn 9 1/8.
>
>Price per case?
>Frames per case?
>Approximant shipping per case to Tennessee?
>Any discounts if ordering above and set number?
>
>I am looking at testing this in 6 hives’s so that
>would be 120 frames.

From them to me:
The fully drawn mold is suppose to go to production testing next
weekend. We are sorry that it is taking so long. This is a very
expensive and time consuming process. Will try to answer more of your
questions after production testing.

From me to them:
Well I am sorry that you can not answer my questions.  You should not put information on the web site if you can not answer simple questions asked about the product. If I had been a large scale beekeeper I bet you would have had an answer for me if you thought you were going to sell me several thousand frames.

 
Now I will wait for product reviews and see how well or poorly this product performs.

Very dissatisfied,



From them to me:
We are as disappointed as you that we have not been able to have the fully drawn frame ready for  the beekeepers weather small hobbyists or large beekeeper, as was first expected. Please bare with us, as we are trying hard to make the needed improvements and start production.  We can send you a sample fully drawn frame for you to see as soon as we receive shipment from manufacturer.
we have 6 1/4 x 6mm   @ $1.90 each  in cartons of 45 and weighs 53lbs. ready for shipment
             7 1/4 x 6mm    @ $2.00 each in carton of 51                     70lbs. ready for shipment

when available, and soon we hope 9 1/8 x 4.9mm fully drawn  @$3.35 each.  weight will be determined on the amount of frames to the carton.
Thank you,
Max

Looks like to me it would make a great product for small sell just the fact that it took 2 different email and over a month to get them to respond.  I think I will just look in to useing small cell wax.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2005, 01:32:19 PM »

Quote
If Michael Bush responds, he'll tell you to use small cell everywhere, I think. Or he'll tell you to put in starter strips or blank frames to let the bees draw their own. Smile This has come up in other places.


That's about right.  But then I run all mine with no excluders, so it seems like a bad idea to have a lot of drawn comb in a hive that isn't really what I want the queen to lay in.  Most of mine are either wax dipped PermaComb or starter strips or foundationless frames.  So the bees build what they want and that works well for me.  In my hives, it's all just a hive to me (since there is no excluder) so there isn't a definite "super" area.  If you want to use an excluder (and I don't) then maybe you could get away with larger comb in the supers.  I haven't tried it so I have no real experience to judge it by.

Dee Lusby is a firm believer that bees have a short term memory of what size comb they've been building, so you don't want them to get in the habit of building a different size than you're trying to encourage them to build in the brood nest.  As I said, I haven't tried it, so I can't say if that's true or not.  But I've found that most of what Dee says turns out to be true.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Lesli
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2005, 01:42:51 PM »

I'm still trying to decide what to do for my supers. I have a bunch of deeps and only a few mediums. The foundation I got from Dadant is small cell plastic, and comes in deep only. And I want to extract. And I see no point to excluders, either, unless I'm making comb honey. I may go with all deeps for now, since that's what I have... I may go with all mediums eventually, and sell off my deeps, but for this season, I can't afford to waste the investment in woodenware and drawn comb and foundation.

Sheesh. Decisions.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 09:38:05 PM »

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm

Quote
I'm still trying to decide what to do for my supers. I have a bunch of deeps and only a few mediums.


I cut all of mine down.  Frames and all.  It wasn't so hard.  There are pictures of how I reassembled the cut down frames on the above site.

Quote
The foundation I got from Dadant is small cell plastic, and comes in deep only.


Are they small cell bees?  If they are regressed then they take small cell plastic like any bee takes to plastic.  Which is they sometimes do well and sometimes reject it.  If they are not regressed I'd save the plastic for after they are.  I had no luck with small cell plastic on unregressed bees and other's have had similar experiences.  I would cut the deep plastic in half and leave a gap at the bottom.  There is a picture of some wax done this way on the above site.  I cut a full deep sheet of small cell wax in half and left the gap at the bottom.  I did it with the plastic on the Dadant deeps.  I just used split pins to hold it in the frame.

Quote
And I see no point to excluders, either, unless I'm making comb honey.


Comb honey is a VERY good reason NOT to use an excluder.  You don't want to discorage them from getting up in the supers and drawing it in a hurry.  Just use some 7/11 surplus foundation and the queen won't like to lay in it and you won't need an excluder.

Quote
I may go with all deeps for now, since that's what I have... I may go with all mediums eventually, and sell off my deeps, but for this season, I can't afford to waste the investment in woodenware and drawn comb and foundation.


I know what you mean.  But then that's why I cut mine down.  That won't help on the drawn comb part though.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Lesli
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2005, 06:23:26 AM »

The bees are already regressed, and even better, I have some drawn 4.9-5.0 from last year's colonies. Everyone will get a frame or two to start out with. Last year's bees weren't regressed, but I started the process (before they swarmed... and died early this month). And they did pretty well. Some frames I scraped down where there was "floating comb," but they drew enough.

I'll probably just buy small cell wax, wire it, and cut it down for mediums, and use the leftover strips as starters. Last year's bees did well with the starter strips in the supers.

I didn't use excluders last year, and there was a bit of brood in the comb supers, so the 7/11 is a good tip.

Thanks!
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2005, 07:20:46 AM »

Trying to get a cap of honey helps with the brood in the supers as does having enough drone comb in the brood nest.  The queen will lay drone in the top super, above a cap of honey, if there are drone cells there and not enough of them in the brood nest.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Jerrymac
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2005, 08:16:08 AM »

What is 7/11?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2005, 12:05:57 PM »

http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=114

It's about 5.7mm size and is too large for the queen to feel comfortable laying workers in it and too small for her to feel comfortable laying drones in it.  Therefore, she USUALLY doesn't lay in it at all.  IF she does it's usually drones.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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