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Author Topic: Children aren't even manipulated this easily...  (Read 3560 times)
SgtMaj
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« on: May 19, 2009, 03:03:44 AM »

Just how nutty our previous president was:http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090518/pl_afp/usiraqpoliticsreligionrumsfeld_20090518141801

Even if Yahoo IS a biased source.   rolleyes
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 06:49:57 AM »

There is evil in this world.  It is the duty of good men (and countries) to fight this evil. 

What's your beef?  Is it using passages from the Bible?  Read your American history, my friend.  Many presidents sought guidance from and used passages from the Bible while the country was at war.
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lmehaffey
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 07:39:24 AM »

Oh, well...every comedian has to have a second banana -- Bush got Rumsfeld and "Birdshot" Cheney; Obama's got "Trip-lip" Biden.

Shame that this stuff's not on reality TV -- at least they could be voted off the show before they do too much damage.
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 09:07:22 AM »

There is evil in this world.  It is the duty of good men (and countries) to fight this evil. 

What's your beef?  Is it using passages from the Bible?  Read your American history, my friend.  Many presidents sought guidance from and used passages from the Bible while the country was at war.

Yet none of them had defense briefings that used out of context religious passages to not only justify but also persuade the president into commiting to unjust actions. 

On a side-note, I bet you wouldn't feel the same way if it were the Quo'ran that was being quoted... funny how the same shoe in a different color suddenly feels uncomfortable on your feet, isn't it?
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 09:22:54 AM »

You assume much, SgtMaj.

Seems like people still suffer from Bush Derangement Syndrome.  Time to look closely at what this president is doing.  Can't do anything about the previous ones.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 09:31:32 AM »

I'm not really big on religion, but Islamic nutjobs have been the worldwide aggressors twice in less than a thousand years.
not to mention that quran passage about converting people at the point of  sword.
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 10:06:47 AM »

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Yet none of them had defense briefings that used out of context religious passages to not only justify but also persuade the president into commiting to unjust actions. 


how do you know and why is it out of context?
what are the sources for this story?
"unjust" is your opinion.

go back and look at Lincolns speeches before and during the civil war.  look at the writings of the founders before the war for independence.

yes, i would be offended if the koran were used.  this country was founded on judeo-christian values, not islamic values. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 09:49:37 PM »

I'm not really big on religion, but Islamic nutjobs have been the worldwide aggressors twice in less than a thousand years.

Not to get picky... but so have Christians.
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kathyp
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2009, 09:52:33 PM »

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Not to get picky... but so have Christians

just for fun, can you give some examples?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2009, 10:09:52 PM »

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Not to get picky... but so have Christians

just for fun, can you give some examples?

Just for fun, why not. 
There were the crusades which were started in 1095, 1147, 1187, 1202, 1209, 1228, 1248, 1270 and finally again in 1271
The spanish inquisition (ok, maybe not technically war against nations, but certainly against people)
The peasants war of 1524...

bah, early times are boring since it could be said that the religion has pacified.... so let's get modern... how about WWII, at least for Hitler's part in it (once again Godwin's law is proven)... and with this article it can now be said that Iraq may have been as well.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 10:18:02 PM »

the crusades were a countercrusade. Islam had marched all the way into Spain - have a look at the architecture. the christian crusades were a defensive war to drive them back.
in addition, as I said I'm no fan of religion anyway, but at least sort the propaganda from fact.
 
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 10:28:39 PM »

you have no proof that the article is accurate.  even if it were, we did not start the war with iraq, we only finished it late.  since saddam at least gave lip service to islam and swore to destroy israel and the us, our going back to enforce the cease fire could be called a defensive move against an islamic radical.

hitler and his buddies were heavily into the occult.  he may have worshiped A god, but what he called god is in question. 

the peasant war was a popular uprising against the church and the nobility.  it had more to do with taxes and land.  it certainly was not started because of some christian fervor on the part of the peasants and land owners.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 10:34:50 PM »

the crusades were a countercrusade. Islam had marched all the way into Spain - have a look at the architecture. the christian crusades were a defensive war to drive them back.
in addition, as I said I'm no fan of religion anyway, but at least sort the propaganda from fact.
 

Which Islamic army set foot anywhere in Europe at that time?
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 10:36:38 PM »

Spain isn't Europe?
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 10:41:41 PM »

besides, the crusades were about protecting pilgrims going to Jerusalem and taking back Jerusalem after the muslims captured it.   also about driving the muslims back from what was left of the roman empire.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 10:54:04 PM »

you have no proof that the article is accurate.  even if it were, we did not start the war with iraq, we only finished it late.  since saddam at least gave lip service to islam and swore to destroy israel and the us, our going back to enforce the cease fire could be called a defensive move against an islamic radical.

So you're saying we should go to war against anyone that preaches Islam?  Wait, were you trying to say this wasn't religion based with that arguement?  And defending against speech??  Really?  That's a sad arguement, even for a republican. Cheesy

hitler and his buddies were heavily into the occult.  he may have worshiped a god, but what he called god is in question.

You may not like it, but what he called god is what you call god, he may have been twisted, but he still believed in the christian god. 

the peasant war was a popular uprising against the church and the nobility.  it had more to do with taxes and land.  it certainly was not started because of some christian fervor on the part of the peasants and land owners.

So take it out of the equasion if you want... doesn't matter, I listed far more than just two inside of a 1000 year span... so it doesn't really matter if you want to ignore the religious aspects to that one particular war.

By the way, I believe we were originally just talking about christians who started wars, not necessarily wars for christian reasons, which means the list could be expanded to cover most of the wars in the last 1000 years.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 10:55:40 PM »

Spain isn't Europe?

Spain is not an islamic army, I said NAME THE ARMY, not name the county that you already named. 
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 10:57:17 PM »

I don't practice any organized religion, but am fairly well-versed in several (religion has been a study of mine for 30 years). I'll take a religious man who wears it on his sleeve anyday over a man who has many faces and tries to be all things to all people.
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 10:57:52 PM »

besides, the crusades were about protecting pilgrims going to Jerusalem and taking back Jerusalem after the muslims captured it.   also about driving the muslims back from what was left of the roman empire.

So you're agreeing with me now?  Seems to me like you're giving a pretty good definition of what would constitute a war that was started by christians and to further christian interests.
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Bee Happy
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 10:58:10 PM »

[...]By the way, I believe we were originally just talking about christians who started wars, not necessarily wars for christian reasons, which means the list could be expanded to cover most of the wars in the last 1000 years.

I thought I was only saying that christians don't have the violent aggressive conquering religious nutjob market all to themselves - don't make me drag ancient china into this.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 10:59:04 PM »

I don't practice any organized religion, but am fairly well-versed in several (religion has been a study of mine for 30 years). I'll take a religious man who wears it on his sleeve anyday over a man who has many faces and tries to be all things to all people.

Ok, and that has what to do with this thread/conversation exactly?
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2009, 11:04:08 PM »

Quote
So you're saying we should go to war against anyone that preaches Islam

where did i say that?

Quote
You may not like it, but what he called god is what you call god, he may have been twisted, but he still believed in the christian god. 


how do you know?

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

you said christians have started wars.  i would have thought you might have picked lincoln, the founding fathers, etc. 
the premise of your statement was that the war against iraq had a religious component.  while two men of faith may have taken us into iraq on two separate occasions, i see no proof that it was because of their faith they made that choice. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2009, 11:04:39 PM »

[...]By the way, I believe we were originally just talking about christians who started wars, not necessarily wars for christian reasons, which means the list could be expanded to cover most of the wars in the last 1000 years.

I thought I was only saying that christians don't have the violent aggressive conquering religious nutjob market all to themselves - don't make me drag ancient china into this.

Oh, well if that's all you were trying to say, then we are in agreement.  There aren't many religions out there that have totally clean hands throughout history.  Religion in general has the capacity to compel people do things they would not otherwise do it out of conscience.
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kathyp
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2009, 11:07:20 PM »

if you want to bring up ancient history, the pagans were pretty aggressive.  the greeks, romans, persians....how many gods does that cover?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 11:14:16 PM »

Spain isn't Europe?

Spain is not an islamic army, I said NAME THE ARMY, not name the county that you already named. 
hairsplitting? - I can honestly tell you it wasn't the 442nd infantry, but name the specific army? I couldn't even tell you the name of their general. But they conquered Spain. by extrapolation I am assuming that they used an army of some sort to accomplish this conquest.
In addition I will assume that since no 'Islamic' army gained a foothold in Europe for they rest of the crusades that their tactics and equipment were not sufficient to get them back into Europe.
history: the foundation of christianity is rebellion of sorts - Jesus was executed as a traitor to Rome and his followers persecuted (of course until they gained their own power.) today (legally) there is no official religion in "christian" societies - America being chief among them. America has no single declared church.
Muhammered ran to the government right away to tell the news of his new sca- visions; and it is a DIRECT link to the fact that today Islamic Mullahs have official power within the government in Islamic nations and there is no pretense of separation of church/state - none. Even if each Islamic Country tolerates various forms of Islam (barely) they often have -officially- no tolerance of non islamic religions.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2009, 11:14:40 PM »

the premise of your statement was that the war against iraq had a religious component.  while two men of faith may have taken us into iraq on two separate occasions, i see no proof that it was because of their faith they made that choice. 

Not two men, one man... the other was just a puppet.  The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course.  
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2009, 11:15:50 PM »

if you want to bring up ancient history, the pagans were pretty aggressive.  the greeks, romans, persians....how many gods does that cover?

Good, so you're in agreement with me then.
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kathyp
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2009, 11:20:41 PM »

Quote
Not two men, one man... the other was just a puppet.  The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course

go back and read carefully what i wrote.

Quote
Good, so you're in agreement with me then.

on what grounds do you make that assumption?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2009, 11:34:04 PM »

hairsplitting? - I can honestly tell you it wasn't the 442nd infantry, but name the specific army? I couldn't even tell you the name of their general. But they conquered Spain. by extrapolation I am assuming that they used an army of some sort to accomplish this conquest.
In addition I will assume that since no 'Islamic' army gained a foothold in Europe for they rest of the crusades that their tactics and equipment were not sufficient to get them back into Europe.

Ok, well just so you know it was the Moors, and it was in 711... and while they were still in Spain in 1096, the first crusade was an attempt to get them out of Jerusalem, not Spain.
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 11:42:22 PM »

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Not two men, one man... the other was just a puppet.  The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course

go back and read carefully what i wrote.

I did, and you were trying to skew the premise of my statement.  Please go back and read carefully what I wrote: "The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course."

Quote
Good, so you're in agreement with me then.

on what grounds do you make that assumption?

On the grounds that you were repeating what I had just posted just one post earlier but in your own words... but it was exactly the same sentiment, We could reassign the names to the quotes and it wouldn't make any difference... here, see for yourself:

Quote from: kathyp
There aren't many religions out there that have totally clean hands throughout history.
Quote from: SgtMaj
if you want to bring up ancient history, the pagans were pretty aggressive.  the greeks, romans, persians....how many gods does that cover?

See?  It doesn't matter who's name is assigned to what quote... they are saying the same thing.  But I do so love the thought that you can't stand to agree with anything I say so much so that you refuse to recognise any similarities.  It makes me chuckle.  Thank you for that.
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2009, 11:43:53 PM »

the moors were muslim.

the second crusade included iberian peninsula.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2009, 11:46:37 PM »

Quote
did, and you were trying to skew the premise of my statement.  Please go back and read carefully what I wrote: "The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course."

try again and read slowly.  hint:  there was nothing in my statement that had anything to do with rumsfeld.


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2009, 11:52:08 PM »

the moors were muslim.

Uh yeah, was I unclear about that?  Do I need to type slower for you? 

the second crusade included iberian peninsula.

Second being the key word
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2009, 11:56:18 PM »

you did not specify that you wanted to limit the reference to crusades to only the first one.  be more specific.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2009, 12:05:21 AM »

you did not specify that you wanted to limit the reference to crusades to only the first one.  be more specific.

Does it really matter?  take out 99% of the wars and I still made the point.
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2009, 12:11:38 AM »

you are the one who wants to be picky.  i am just trying to play by your rules.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2009, 12:24:11 AM »

you are the one who wants to be picky.  i am just trying to play by your rules.

Are you even going anywhere with this?
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« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2009, 12:36:29 AM »

nope
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »

the premise of your statement was that the war against iraq had a religious component.  while two men of faith may have taken us into iraq on two separate occasions, i see no proof that it was because of their faith they made that choice. 

Not two men, one man... the other was just a puppet.  The premise of my statement was that Rumsfeld manipulated Bush through religion, into doing what Rumsfeld wanted him to even though it clearly wasn't the best course.  

Ok here is what I have trouble with. People either need to pick one or the other was Bush an evil genious or was he an idiot. So many paint President Bush as this evil mastermind which orchestrated this mass hoodwinking of the American public into a false war. On the otherhand here he is an idiot that went to war because someone printed a pretty picture with religious verses on it.
Its one or the other

Keith
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« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2009, 08:40:29 PM »

Ok here is what I have trouble with. People either need to pick one or the other was Bush an evil genious or was he an idiot. So many paint President Bush as this evil mastermind which orchestrated this mass hoodwinking of the American public into a false war. On the otherhand here he is an idiot that went to war because someone printed a pretty picture with religious verses on it.
Its one or the other

Keith

I have never, ever heard of him being portrayed as a genius of any sort... or even mildly intelligent.
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tlozo
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2009, 12:41:00 AM »


[/quote]

Spain is not an islamic army, I said NAME THE ARMY, not name the county that you already named. 
[/quote]

It was the invading Moors or Saracens of the of the Umayyad Caliphate led by Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi who were defeated at Tours in 732 by the Franks who were led by Charles the Hammer. This battle was the high tide of the Muslim advance into Europe.
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kathyp
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2009, 01:35:30 AM »

 grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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