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Author Topic: Hunting after the Obama Gun Ban  (Read 5393 times)
1reb
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 10:33:48 PM »

founding fathers wanted  us to keep and bear arms  with enough ammo !!!!!!!!!
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2009, 11:24:14 PM »

a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It says what it says.
Not all Felonies are committed with weapons of any kind. Not all felons are violent.

Should... "seriously mentally disturbed (diagnosed paranoid schizo types)"... even be out running around loose, having access to all kinds of bricks, sticks, bats, knifes, cars, pipes, poisons, etc, etc, etc, etc,
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2009, 11:35:29 PM »

is that not already addressed by laws?

Well kind-of... except that there's currently no real way to enforce those laws on private sales until the perp. commits another crime... 

But I really just wanted to know if Jerry was hinting that the existing laws should be repealed. 

Existing laws that denote penaties for using guns during the commision of crimes should be inforced before enacting any more laws about guns.  The result will be that there is no reason to pass more gun legislation.
Any law that compromises the 2nd Amendment for the average law abiding Joe C. Citizen should be repealed.
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2009, 11:48:16 PM »

a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It says what it says.
Not all Felonies are committed with weapons of any kind. Not all felons are violent.

So is that a "yes"?  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm just curious what you think.

Should... "seriously mentally disturbed (diagnosed paranoid schizo types)"... even be out running around loose, having access to all kinds of bricks, sticks, bats, knifes, cars, pipes, poisons, etc, etc, etc, etc,

Well we can't lock them up just because they have a disability can we?  If we can, then republicans are in REAL trouble.   grin
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 11:55:24 PM »

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Well we can't lock them up just because they have a disability can we?

in fact we can and did until the bleeding hearts decided they needed to be "mainstreamed" into society.....much to the detriment of society.  hey, it makes them feel good and if they won't stay on their meds and kill folks, that's the price of the warm fuzzies.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 12:04:16 AM »

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Well we can't lock them up just because they have a disability can we?

in fact we can and did until the bleeding hearts decided they needed to be "mainstreamed" into society.....much to the detriment of society.  hey, it makes them feel good and if they won't stay on their meds and kill folks, that's the price of the warm fuzzies.

Actually that's kinda the price of justice, human rights, guaranteeing your rights... take your pick.
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 12:10:52 AM »

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Actually that's kinda the price of justice, human rights, guaranteeing your rights... take your pick.

mental illness is a medical issue, not a legal issue.  in both, the safety of society as a whole outweighs the "rights" of the patient or criminal at some point.  i would have been happy with a compromise.  be out, but the first time you go off your meds and endanger someone you are locked up.  of course, that wouldn't take care of those diagnosed with mental illness who, as their first act, kill their children or parent.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 12:14:47 AM »

A person commits a crime. Goes to prison. He/she has paid their dues. They have been punished. Do they now not have the right to defend themselves?

The answer is yes. Repeal those laws. They are going to get the weapons anyway if they want them, why not make it so they can do it openly instead of in the shadows? Why are people so afraid to live free that they have to take away the rights of others?

As far as the nut jobs out there. I would prefer they were permanently locked away than the commiter of crimes. One never knows when they are going to go bonkers.  
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2009, 12:19:57 AM »

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Actually that's kinda the price of justice, human rights, guaranteeing your rights... take your pick.

mental illness is a medical issue, not a legal issue.

So is being dark skinned.

in both, the safety of society as a whole outweighs the "rights" of the patient or criminal at some point.

You know, since we were just talking about the second amendment, I seem to recall a quote from one of our founding fathers... something about how people who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither.  If they were wrong about that, then they were probably wrong about the second amendment and we should go ahead and get rid of it now.

i would have been happy with a compromise.  be out, but the first time you go off your meds and endanger someone you are locked up.

do you mean endanger as in comit a crime or just scare someone?  If you mean commit a crime, that's the way it is now.  

of course, that wouldn't take care of those diagnosed with mental illness who, as their first act, kill their children or parent.

Well it does, but like everything else in this country, we don't lock people up until AFTER they've committed the crime (in theory anyway, we all know in practice the wrong people are sometimes convicted of crimes they didn't commit, but that's something else entirely).
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2009, 12:22:17 AM »

a person commits a crime. Goes to prison. He/she has paid their dues. They have been punished. Do they now not have the right to defend themselves?

The answer is yes. Repeal those laws. They are going to get the weapons anyway if they want them, why not make it so they can do it openly instead of in the shadows? Why are people so afraid to live free that they have to take away the rights of others?

Good man.

As far as the nut jobs out there. I would prefer they were permanently locked away than the commiter of crimes. One never knows when they are going to go bonkers.  

Well we also know that certain criminal types have high recitivism rates as well... so one never knows when they'll go bonkers either... in fact, no one really knows when anyone will go bonkers.
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mick
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2009, 01:48:27 AM »

Yall gunna have as few guns as we do soon, keep digging those holes!
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beemused
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2009, 11:28:37 PM »

It could be there is another way Obamination will affect gun use since a outright ban could cause major unrest.  This could be one way:

     Georgia Arms is the 5th largest retailer of .223 Ammo in America . They sell 9mm, .45, ..223 ammunition. They normally buy spent brass from the US Department of Defense. Spent brass is "one time used" shell cases used by our Military for training purposes.
           They buy the brass, recondition it, and then reload the brass for resale to Law Enforcement, Gun Clubs, Gun Shops, and stores like Wal-Mart. They normally buy 30,000 lbs of spent brass at a time.
           This week the DoD wrote a letter to the owner of Georgia Arms and informed him that from now on the DoD will be destroying the spent brass, shredding it. It will no longer be available to the ammo makers, unless they buy it in a scrap shredded condition (which they have no use for). The shredded brass i s now going to be sold by the DoD to China as scrap metal, after the DoD pays for it to be shredded. The DoD is selling the b rass to China for less money than the ammo makers have been paying, plus the DoD has to pay to have the brass shredded and do the accounting paperwork.
           This sure helps the economy now doesn't it? Sell cheaper to China , and do not sell at all to a proven US business. Any hidden agenda working here?  Obama going after the Firearms Industry and our ammunition!!
           The Georgia Arms owner even related a story that one of his competitors had already purchased a load of brass last week. The DoD contacted him this week and said they were sending someone over to make sure it was destroyed. Shell cases he had already bought!
           The brass has no value to the ammo maker if it is destroyed/shredded/melted. The ammo manufacturer only uses the empty brass cases to reload different calibers, mainly .223 bullets.
           The owner of Georgia Arms says that he will have to lay o ff at least half of his 60 workers, within 2-3 months if the DoD will no longer sell spent brass cases to the industry. Georgia Arms has 2-3 months of inventory to use, by summer they're out.
           If the Reloading Industry has to purchase new manufacture brass cases, then the cost of ammunition will double or even triple,  plus Obama want to add a 500% tax on each shell.

=0 A           You can read the information and see the DoD letter to Georgia Arms here:
           The Shootist Site

           http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html
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kathyp
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 12:05:28 AM »

isn't that special.  limit ammo access and cost tax payers money at the same time.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2009, 03:49:12 AM »

It could be there is another way Obamination will affect gun use since a outright ban could cause major unrest.  This could be one way:

     Georgia Arms is the 5th largest retailer of .223 Ammo in America . They sell 9mm, .45, ..223 ammunition. They normally buy spent brass from the US Department of Defense. Spent brass is "one time used" shell cases used by our Military for training purposes.
           They buy the brass, recondition it, and then reload the brass for resale to Law Enforcement, Gun Clubs, Gun Shops, and stores like Wal-Mart. They normally buy 30,000 lbs of spent brass at a time.
           This week the DoD wrote a letter to the owner of Georgia Arms and informed him that from now on the DoD will be destroying the spent brass, shredding it. It will no longer be available to the ammo makers, unless they buy it in a scrap shredded condition (which they have no use for). The shredded brass i s now going to be sold by the DoD to China as scrap metal, after the DoD pays for it to be shredded. The DoD is selling the b rass to China for less money than the ammo makers have been paying, plus the DoD has to pay to have the brass shredded and do the accounting paperwork.
           This sure helps the economy now doesn't it? Sell cheaper to China , and do not sell at all to a proven US business. Any hidden agenda working here?  Obama going after the Firearms Industry and our ammunition!!
           The Georgia Arms owner even related a story that one of his competitors had already purchased a load of brass last week. The DoD contacted him this week and said they were sending someone over to make sure it was destroyed. Shell cases he had already bought!
           The brass has no value to the ammo maker if it is destroyed/shredded/melted. The ammo manufacturer only uses the empty brass cases to reload different calibers, mainly .223 bullets.
           The owner of Georgia Arms says that he will have to lay o ff at least half of his 60 workers, within 2-3 months if the DoD will no longer sell spent brass cases to the industry. Georgia Arms has 2-3 months of inventory to use, by summer they're out.
           If the Reloading Industry has to purchase new manufacture brass cases, then the cost of ammunition will double or even triple,  plus Obama want to add a 500% tax on each shell.

=0 a           You can read the information and see the DoD letter to Georgia Arms here:
           The Shootist Site

           http://www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html


Wow, I didn't realize people were selling reconditioned ammo... that seems kinda crappy to me.  Personally, I'm glad the DOD is doing that... when I load my gun, I want to KNOW that every round is brand new which reduces the liklihood of a misfire.  I especially want to know the ammo I'm using is good on the occasion that I should have to use my weapon to defend myself or my family. 
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dragonfly
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2009, 01:50:27 PM »


Wow, I didn't realize people were selling reconditioned ammo... that seems kinda crappy to me.  Personally, I'm glad the DOD is doing that... when I load my gun, I want to KNOW that every round is brand new which reduces the liklihood of a misfire.  I especially want to know the ammo I'm using is good on the occasion that I should have to use my weapon to defend myself or my family. 

Spent brass is great for reloading. Ask the many reloaders who currently use it. The reloaders I know (including DH) tend to be extremely detail conscious and fastidious with their reloading, and often the ammo is more accurate and more uniform than anything you can buy. Misfires are usually a fault with the gun or user error in my experience.

Btw, I heard that the brass shredding issue was stopped dead in its tracks within a couple of days due to the high level of negative response it was getting.
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Keith13
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2009, 02:19:00 PM »

Quote
Actually that's kinda the price of justice, human rights, guaranteeing your rights... take your pick.

mental illness is a medical issue, not a legal issue.

So is being dark skinned.


That is a pretty racist statement Sgt Maj. Didn't realize being an African American was a medical issue

Keith

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SgtMaj
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2009, 05:49:44 PM »

Quote
Actually that's kinda the price of justice, human rights, guaranteeing your rights... take your pick.

mental illness is a medical issue, not a legal issue.

So is being dark skinned.


That is a pretty racist statement Sgt Maj. Didn't realize being an African American was a medical issue

Keith



Glad it made the point... because if it's ok to take someone's rights from them for having a medical condition, where does it end?  Perhaps everyone that's ever had an ear infection should be rounded up into internment camps, or maybe it should be by the color of our skin/hair/eyes? 

By the way, you didn't think the color of skin was a legal issue instead of a medical one, did you?
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kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2009, 05:59:34 PM »

unfortunately sarge, a lot of those folks end up homeless, a danger to the public, and a drain on resources.  if a person has a diagnosed mental illness and will stay on meds and in treatment, that's one thing.  many, many do/will not.  in addition, there is a genetic component to many mental illnesses.  while i am not in favor of having the govt in the bedroom, i am not in favor of diluting the gene pool when it could be avoided, at least to some extent by strong counseling, and mandatory hospitalization for those who are not in control of themselves....long term hospitalization.

i understand this sounds harsh  but i worked with psych patients for years.  some do well.  depending on diagnosis and treatment, some go on to live a very normal life.  the majority of those diagnosed with a serious mental illness do well only long enough to be on the street.  for every one you see on the news killing their children, or causing a disturbance, there are 100's on the street, or living with family and causing a slow death to all they come in contact with.  for all our mainstreaming and community based treatment, the problem is growing.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2009, 06:34:14 PM »

unfortunately sarge, a lot of those folks end up homeless, a danger to the public, and a drain on resources.

So do a lot of people who don't have mental illnesses.

if a person has a diagnosed mental illness and will stay on meds and in treatment, that's one thing.  many, many do/will not.  in addition, there is a genetic component to many mental illnesses.  while i am not in favor of having the govt in the bedroom, i am not in favor of diluting the gene pool when it could be avoided, at least to some extent by strong counseling, and mandatory hospitalization for those who are not in control of themselves....long term hospitalization.

So are we going to have uncle sam taking blood samples of everyone now, and hauling off anyone with unpure genes now?  That sounds oddly familiar... almost like someone tried that back in the late 30's and early 40's in Germany...

i understand this sounds harsh  but i worked with psych patients for years.  some do well.  depending on diagnosis and treatment, some go on to live a very normal life.

And if you look at any normal classroom you will find the same thing. 

the majority of those diagnosed with a serious mental illness do well only long enough to be on the street.  for every one you see on the news killing their children, or causing a disturbance, there are 100's on the street, or living with family and causing a slow death to all they come in contact with.  for all our mainstreaming and community based treatment, the problem is growing.

Just make sure you are willing to stand at the front of the line when the govt. is taking genetic samples to determine what genes cause a person to be a drain on society.  Seems like I've heard that message before, too...
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kathyp
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2009, 06:41:05 PM »

you do love to put words in people mouths.  i did not suggest any of those things.  i do suggest that those with a diagnosed mental illness who are not controlled by meds, be locked up.  for their safety and ours.  i would like those who are not locked up to be encouraged strongly and with much counseling, not to procreate.

i think that's a pretty clear position, but feel free to rewrite what i wrote.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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