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Author Topic: Financial guru talks bees....  (Read 2837 times)
wharfrat
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« on: May 18, 2009, 10:05:21 AM »

Gary Shilling has 18 hives!..here is a link to his Nasdaq interview...
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/249657/Weekend-Buzz-Secrets-of-the-Beekeeper?tickers=

Don't know about all of his statements...he says there is no orgainic honey..he says if you don't treat for varroa..hives will be dead within 2 years..

Comments?

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sc-bee
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 10:28:01 AM »

Ask 10 different beekeepers and get --- how many different answers. Well you know Wink!

I think they did a great job with the segment. All interviews have some opinion.

As far as organic honey, I think we all understand what he is trying to say. Is honey organic if you don't treat but they go down to your neighbors and get in a pesticide. I don't think so grin! Careful calling your product organic.

As for not treating for Varroa and bees being dead in two years. Well you are just beginning to hear about live and let die. Also new work with hygienic bees being done last few years.

No offense, but it is hard to change alot of old-timers views on these subjects. Especially because things have changed so rapidly in the last few years and often so many things contradict each other.

I think the piece does a great job at showing, beekeepers bee come from all walks of life Smiley! Good job Gary.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 02:52:23 PM by sc-bee » Logged

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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 12:20:09 PM »

i have a friend with a commercial produce farm.  she says the whole organic thing is a way to soak consumers.  smiley 

on the mites, it depends.  if you buy a package and don't treat, they probably will end up overwhelmed by mites.  same happens with the swarms i get from the pollination hives.  it's like an American going to Thailand and drinking the tap water.  you know what's going to happen.  you have no resistance.

i have a couple i'll treat this year.  they are booming hives and i can see that the mite count is high.  i have some that i won't treat because....and it gets expensive. 

i'd rather have bees that don't need to be treated, but i'd rather have bees.   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
G3farms
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 02:01:17 PM »

I have one hive that has not been treated in about 7 years and they are doing just fine. Solid bottom board.

Going to have to put them in new wood this year since the old wood is just about gone.

G3
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see my swarms and cut outs at https://www.youtube.com/user/soapy22bullet?feature=mhee

those hot bees will have you steppin and a fetchin like your heads on fire and your @ss is a catchin!!!

Bees will be bees and do as they please!
rast
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 05:54:00 PM »

"she says the whole organic thing is a way to soak consumers"
 I have a neighbor (same one that sold most of my honey last year) that sells red potato's. He told me that as long as there is fire ant tracks on the potato's, his customers think they are organic, their idea, not his. He said he just keeps his mouth shut.
 (anyone that dosen't know, ant tracks are where ants have eaten through the skin)
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tlynn
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 07:41:04 PM »

Here's the thing - organic used to mean a lot more than it does today.  It used to be a whole philosophy of sustainability, kindness to the environment, and a rejection of factory and other large scale farming techniques.  It has become a liberal and yuppie buzzword.  Maybe it IS a way to soak consumers these days, which is a real shame.

Back in the early 80s the store I used to buy my food from was the precursor of the first Whole Foods Market, then called the Crystal Market.  It had this case of quartz crystals and everybody wore them around their necks, for the energy.  I thought it was a bit oddball, but what did I know?  Maybe 50% of the produce was locally grown and called organic.  You could buy many things in bulk, like peanut butter, soaps, etc.  I remember I got a dose of education most times I walked in there.  "You wouldn't happen to have saved your last bottle, did you?  Because you could bring it in and buy in bulk and save money."  Or "Have you considered getting some canvas bags instead of using paper bags?  It will save on having to cut down more trees."

Now you go into Wild Oats or other fancy natural food stores and will find 5 varieties of organic honey, near the organic cookies and ice cream.  So now people can feel good about eating junk food that's supposed to be good for you!  The employees there couldn't afford to shop there even if they wanted to, and they have no knowledge of or interest in sustainability.  Do you think they are going to advise on recycling?  No, they're counting the hours until they can go home and play XBox or catch up with friends on Facebook.

Those folks at the Crystal Market may have seemed a bit weird, but as I think back on how my behaviors changed from over 25 years ago by going to that store, I'm sure there has been a lot fewer paper sacks and plastic bottles in the waste stream and a lot more local farmers supported than otherwise.  That's really what organic is about.
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peacekeeperapiaries
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 07:55:24 PM »

Like sc-bee said, Ask 10 different beekeepers get 10 different answers.  I thought it was a good segment, very informative and painted beekeeping in positive light.  I thought he advised he had 80 hives, not 18, but it does not really matter he did a great job in a short interview.
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2009, 08:07:09 PM »

any time we get some good press, it's a good thing.

as for organic, i feel about that the way i feel about vitamins.  if it makes you happy, do it.   Smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
hollybees
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2009, 08:22:08 PM »


I liked the segment..I want Gary as a mentor what a cool old beek cool.
Good golly!! did you see his hands....yikes that's gotta kill lifting super full of honey.
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WOB419
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2009, 09:26:35 PM »

I liked the segment very much, he got his material out very well.  He might have missed a point or two but all in all he did very good.  What he missed shows that he spends more time in the bee yard than on the bee forums.  I am sure that I could learn a lot from him.

I never got into the organic thing.  Now that the government is regulating it so tightly it has put a lot of barriers to entry from their requirements driving up the cost of production and a mistake on a label can cost you a fortune for defense and penalties.  I use as little chemicals as possible on my hives because I am cheap, because I would rather not have chemicals involved in my food production if at all possible (so I minimize it) and I buy into the idea that we will be in a never ending chase for a new chemical to fight the evolving pest, might, bacteria etc.

This is a fun thread.  I like hearing people's opinions on this, particularly since they are not that far from my own. Wink
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 12:36:06 AM »

I can't remember where, but I've seen studies that have shown that the average bee hive has trace amounts of 7 or 8 different pesticides or herbicides in them, so it's pretty hard to avoid them altogether. 

Personally though, I think the organic label is applied properly if the hive and apiary have been managed organically.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 08:40:55 AM »

I read somewhere that the only real organic honey comes from an isolated island in Hawaii. Can't recall where huh
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WOB419
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 05:59:56 PM »

Yes SC-Bee, as I understand it, to be truly organic the beekeeper must never use chemicals and the 3 mile foraging radius for the bee must not use chemicals either.  So it doesn't have to be an island in Hawaii necessarily, but as a practical matter an island is about the only way to ensure the "chemical free" aspects of organic.  Otherwise you would have to ensure that you control 36 square miles of land so that it is all maintained in an organic way.   

There are other aspects of organic, such as the breeding stock that produced the queen had to also be organic.

I might have some details wrong but the gist of this is correct.
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hytop3
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 08:44:44 PM »

As for the treating of Varroa Mites.  I will put my two cents in.  I have 5 hives.  Last year I had three Hives and when my State Inspector came by to inspect at my request, He asked "what are you doing about varroa mites?  I told him nothing, I do not treat for anything, mites, wax moths, hive beetles.  I do however believe in keeping very strong hives.  The inspectors comment to my "nothing" answer was "Keep on doing it"
     I really don't believe the same people who created the so called CCD (without knowing they did at the time the insecticide came out), can create a insecticide that can/will distinguish from one  insect to another.  Then what do Insects do when insecticides are used the get used to one and then you will have to find another to use.   The industrial bee Keepers are loosing I understand it,  but until they give up the insecticides and let the bees naturally adjust the will always have a problem.  It very simple, sell half your hives every year and keep half to create new hives to sell next year.  Until this pesticide is made illegal like DDT you will always have CCD, Do not bring back every year to your hives.  Make them outright buy them and never bring them to your bee yards.  Did you get that industrial bee keeper.  This is not rocket science.  Bees will adapt.  They are an insect.   
     As for CCD, Every University in the Nation that has done studies has come up with mostly the same diagnosis.  Want to know what they found out.  Read the back of any insecticide bag.  It tells exactly what will happen to incest's and all those symptoms have been found in CCD.  OLD Saying: You can find what you are looking for.  Some University's have found small correlations of this or that but say they just don't know what it really is that causes CCD.  I truly believe they are milking the government for as much as they can.  I also truly believe they will not say anything to get themselves sued by the largest manufactures of insecticides in the nation, when: I do truly believe, they know what is causing CCD.   Again, Read the back of a insecticide bag.  All symptoms of CCD are right there.  So the farmer knew before using it what it would do to insects, (Bees are INSECTS), and almost every gardener in the nation.  Most are not beekeepers and do not know what they are doing to the bees and may not stop using the pesticide even if they did.
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kathyp
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 08:56:51 PM »

you should publish your findings.

there are ways to treat mites and at least keep the mite counts down, without using insecticides.   i agree with you that no treatment should be the goal.  i also understand that those starting out with packages, collecting swarms that have come from treated hives, or those who have a low loss tolerance, should not be discouraged from treating when needed. 

perhaps, rather than making people feel guilty when they treat, we should educate them on the least toxic treatments, and when/when not to treat.  an educated beekeeper will make the right decision for their circumstances.

i prefer to ride out food poisoning when i travel.  i think it builds my immune system.  however, i will take drugs when it gets bad enough because i prefer not to die.  grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 09:37:22 PM »

Yes SC-Bee, as I understand it, to be truly organic the beekeeper must never use chemicals and the 3 mile foraging radius for the bee must not use chemicals either.  So it doesn't have to be an island in Hawaii necessarily, but as a practical matter an island is about the only way to ensure the "chemical free" aspects of organic.  Otherwise you would have to ensure that you control 36 square miles of land so that it is all maintained in an organic way.

Not to get picky, but your math is incorrect.  Ok so that is getting picky, but you were solving for the area of a square instead of a circle which should be Pi*9 in this case, or roughly 28 and a quarter sqare miles instead of 36.
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WOB419
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 09:53:41 PM »

Sarge, I knew that was going to come. 

I was rushing to take my daughter to dance class and thought:  the area of a square is close enough to make the conceptual point.  In the car I thought, well I should probably have just done the math on the area of the circle. 

Tonight I will lie in bed (or is that lay in bed?) and try to picture how 28.26 square miles fits into a circle.... rolleyes

By the way my math was correct, it was my geometry that was wrong...but now I too am being picky

You are right and I am glad you pointed it out.  Will you agree that I got the gist correct?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:11:07 PM by WOB419 » Logged
SgtMaj
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 12:12:20 AM »

Sarge, I knew that was going to come. 

I was rushing to take my daughter to dance class and thought:  the area of a square is close enough to make the conceptual point.  In the car I thought, well I should probably have just done the math on the area of the circle. 

Tonight I will lie in bed (or is that lay in bed?) and try to picture how 28.26 square miles fits into a circle.... rolleyes

By the way my math was correct, it was my geometry that was wrong...but now I too am being picky

You are right and I am glad you pointed it out.  Will you agree that I got the gist correct?

you got it correct for sure.
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WOB419
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2009, 07:31:18 AM »

Thanks buddy, that was fun.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2009, 08:46:33 AM »

Geeze, does that mean the island has to be exactly the shape of a square or circle. I don't want to upset the bees. I'm feel confident they will know the difference but grasp the concept evil!

And all this started with Wall Street Wink!
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WOB419
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2009, 07:05:57 PM »

I'm rethinking my original formula, I think that the estimate of 36 square miles is correct because noone sells land in round mile incriments.  That leaves you having to buy a 6 mile by 6 mile piece of land...I was right afterall!!! grin
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 10:46:51 PM by WOB419 » Logged
deknow
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 07:14:21 PM »

the real problem i saw in that video is that we have an economist that is willing to talk in absolutes (as in "..the bees will absolutely die").  especially given that we know his claim to be untrue (although perhaps true in his experience), it is a bit disturbing that someone that gets so much press in his main field (economics) doesn't know how to avoid falling into this particular trap.

deknow
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 08:36:35 PM »

I'm rethinking my original formula think that the estimate of 36 square miles is correct because noone sell land in round mile incriments.  That leave you having to buy a 6 mile by 6 mile piece of land...I was right afterall!!! grin

Well the beek doesn't have to own the property, just ensure it remains chem. free.  Therefore it wouldn't matter if the beek owned a small square in the center and only ensured the rest of the land inside the forage area remained chemical free.
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Irwin
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howdy all


« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 08:53:09 PM »

I think there is no such thing as organic honey! How can you tell where your bee's are going ?
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Fight organized crime!  Re-elect no one.
SgtMaj
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 08:57:28 PM »

I think there is no such thing as organic honey! How can you tell where your bee's are going ?

Well you can tell they aren't going for more than a certain distance from your hive.  If you can guarantee that no chemicals have been used within that radius, then it's organic.
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doak
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 09:30:22 PM »

Who has proof that the bees will use a perfect circle.
It is also known they "will" fly over 3 miles.
You will have to be in an area where there is no spraying the forest, where there is no power lines rights of way to be sprayed. What else do you have?

Lawn treatments, swimming pools, pest control sprays.
Bees go into some strange places to get what they need.

As for organic veggies, the soil has to be with out chemicals for a certain number of years, before you can even start, I forget the number.

A lot of people will buy "naturally grown" labeled  veggies as quick as the ones with the big O on the label, can be sold at a less price and you don't have to worry about the "ORGANIC" reg's.
People know what "Natural" means. Don't buck this one.

The last time I treated was  (2006) lost 7 out of 12 that fall and the following spring.
No treatment since then and have lost 2 colonies.
You tell me.

As for organic, forget it unless you own a good bank that doesn't need tarp $$$.
I know there are disagreements with what I have said, that is my thoughts, not subject to change.
 :)doak
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 03:55:18 AM »

Who has proof that the bees will use a perfect circle.
It is also known they "will" fly over 3 miles.
You will have to be in an area where there is no spraying the forest, where there is no power lines rights of way to be sprayed. What else do you have?

Lawn treatments, swimming pools, pest control sprays.
Bees go into some strange places to get what they need.

So call it 10 miles... and while the area the bees fly in may not be a perfect circle, the area the beek would have to have chemical free would have to be a circle out to whatever radius the bees have the ability to fly to.  Either way, there are still vast areas of land in the world, and some of it may be chemical free, perhaps a huge organic farm, or many organic farms in one place... or maybe wilderness.
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sc-bee
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 08:13:40 AM »

>So call it 10 miles... and while the area the bees fly in may not be a perfect circle, the area the beek would have to have chemical free would have to be a circle out to whatever radius the bees have the ability to fly to

 beat a dead horse beat a dead horse beat a dead horse
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WOB419
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2009, 10:50:15 PM »

Are those bees flying around the dead horses? 
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kathyp
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2009, 10:57:16 PM »

i think my friend said the soil had to have been unsprayed/treated for 3 years and then it has to be tested.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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