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Author Topic: Give them eggs or a queen?  (Read 1939 times)
tlynn
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« on: May 17, 2009, 12:41:47 PM »

Inspection today revealed 2 queenless hives.  These are new splits I queened 4/29.  Last week I saw queens in both when checking them.  Today I saw small larvae but zero eggs, and I looked very hard with reading glasses.  A couple queen caps but nothing in them. I suppose I could have damaged them during last week's inspection, but I'm pretty cautious.

Anyway should I try giving them a frame with eggs and letting them make their own queen or just requeen them?  Both hives have a lot of capped brood and I want to keep them building up.  So I wonder if the lag time will lose too many bees.  What would you do?
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jason58104
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 01:16:15 PM »

What kind of pattern were the larve layed in?  If they are in a shotgun pattern you may have laying workers.  If the were in a nice circular pattern chances are your queens are there and doing fine. 
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kathyp
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 01:17:17 PM »

you have a better acceptance rate if they make their own.  last report i remember reading had 50% acceptance rate when you purchase and requeen.  it's kind of your call, but if you keep losing queens, you are no better off.

it's unusual to lose 2 queens and have neither hive make queens.  i'd be very sure that you are queenless and that there are no queens being made before buying queens.  you don't want to waste your money.  if you are not very sure, the safest bet is to give them eggs  and see what happens.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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tlynn
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2009, 01:48:52 PM »

it's unusual to lose 2 queens and have neither hive make queens.  i'd be very sure that you are queenless and that there are no queens being made before buying queens.  you don't want to waste your money.  if you are not very sure, the safest bet is to give them eggs  and see what happens.

Yea, seems to be.  There's definitely no new queens cells with eggs or royal jelly within.  One hive has a whole frame of empty cells near center of hive.  There are not, to the best of my ability any eggs in there.

How new does the egg need to be before they build a cell around it and turn it into a queen?

Also I have a swarm I caught recently and saw its queen today and she is laying well.  I was thinking of combining her into one of the queenless hives.  How would I combine a 5 frame nuc with a 10 frame hive?
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SlickMick
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2009, 04:24:18 PM »

They can be combined the same way as 2 10 framers or 2 nucs.. just use a plank of ply or other timber to cover the vacant space beside the nuc and newspaper under the nuc. You may have to may have to move the brood down into the 10 framer once the girls are combined if her ladyship is reluctant to move by herself

Mick
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2009, 04:37:31 PM »

 Here's a calander that I was looking at earlier today.
 http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queen_rearing_wo.html#anchor2957936
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 04:46:34 PM »

If indeed they are queenless, I would re-queen them.  If they are splits, they don't have a lot of resources for good queen rearing, let alone a whole month lag in new brood.

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/
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JP
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 05:29:26 PM »

If you are absolutely certain they are queenless, you can get them to make a queen or re queen, your call.

I would give them a frame with eggs and young larvae not more than 3-4 days old and a frame or two of uncapped  honey and see how they do.

If they are queenless, you'll have your answer within twenty four hours as they should begin to make queen cells.

However, if you do allow them the opportunity to make their own, you want as many bees in your boxes as possible for the endeavor.

You may need to condense your set up for maximum queen rearing results.

What's your set ups consist of?


...JP
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tlynn
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 06:13:15 PM »



What's your set ups consist of?


...JP

JP, I don't understand.
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JP
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 06:18:21 PM »

You said you made two splits. Are they in deeps, mediums, two deeps, a deep and a medium?

How many frames are covered with bees?


...JP
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tlynn
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2009, 07:20:12 PM »

You said you made two splits. Are they in deeps, mediums, two deeps, a deep and a medium?

How many frames are covered with bees?


...JP

The splits hives are in deeps.  I's say brood boxes have 6-7 frames covered.  I have one super on each, and the supers maybe 4-5 frames in bees.  This evaluation is based on 90F blue sky mid day inspection today.  I moved 1 frame of eggs and larvae into one of the hives, and I think I want to combine the swarm with the other.  That way I can dispose of the swarm I have and not have to buy more queens.  That is if my swarm queen combines and the other hive makes a new queen.  Does that sound reasonable?

If I had plenty of space I'd want to keep growing, but I am out of room in my back yard. Heck, for all I know that swarm queen might be one of my purchased queens.
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kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2009, 08:50:32 PM »

you gave eggs to one hive and want to combine the other queenless hive with the queen right swarm?  that probably would work ok.  just make sure you do a newspaper combine.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
JP
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 09:54:37 PM »

It sounds like you have good numbers so things should work out if eggs or young enough larvae are present.

The combination should work out as well, good luck.


...JP
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tlynn
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 11:09:07 PM »

Good, I think I'm on the right track then. 

I have never done a newspaper combine.  Any tricks to this?
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tlynn
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 12:09:43 AM »

Here's a calander that I was looking at earlier today.
 http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/queen_rearing_wo.html#anchor2957936


Thanks Rick.  I've seen that site before.  Good info.
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JP
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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 08:26:19 AM »

Good, I think I'm on the right track then. 

I have never done a newspaper combine.  Any tricks to this?

Queenright hive on bottom, remove cover, smoke 'em down, add piece of newspaper, add queenless hive, either with frames or empty box, depending on overall numbers of both boxes, smoke 'em a little, oh, place slits in newspaper, add top cover.

Some like to lightly mist neswpaper with sugar water, not a bad idea.


...JP
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tlynn
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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 05:55:44 PM »

Good, I think I'm on the right track then. 

I have never done a newspaper combine.  Any tricks to this?

Queenright hive on bottom, remove cover, smoke 'em down, add piece of newspaper, add queenless hive, either with frames or empty box, depending on overall numbers of both boxes, smoke 'em a little, oh, place slits in newspaper, add top cover.

Some like to lightly mist neswpaper with sugar water, not a bad idea.


...JP

What do I do if my queenright colony is a 5 frame nuc?  Can I transfer all its frames to another deep first and then put it under the queenless colony?  How far apart to slit paper?  I suppose this helps them to bust through sooner?
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 06:04:19 PM »

 If you are getting the rain I am right now. Last year I did a newspaper combine and left about 2" hanging out between the boxes and the rain on it wicked in and the paper fell apart prematurely. Some slit, some don't. 1 slit on each side will work, 1' is plenty. Carefull cause a hive tool can put a tear, not a slit in it.
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tlynn
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 07:11:23 PM »

If you are getting the rain I am right now. Last year I did a newspaper combine and left about 2" hanging out between the boxes and the rain on it wicked in and the paper fell apart prematurely. Some slit, some don't. 1 slit on each side will work, 1' is plenty. Carefull cause a hive tool can put a tear, not a slit in it.

Rick - yep, nearly an inch today.  Sorely needed.  Thanks for the insight on the hanging paper.  I am going to wait until it clears.

Forgive me if I seem a bit dense - I want to get it right - so just one nick in the paper, about an inch long and that's it?
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 09:12:42 PM »

 I put two small ones and it's worked for me. I think it kinda of an opinion thing on the number of slits. The slits just enable them to chew through it faster, lets a little of the two different bee smalls mix with each other also before they get to each other. You will probably still have a little fighting, but nothing like if you just set them together.
 Which brings me to something else I have read about, but have never tried. Spraying both hives of bees with some sugar water with a little wintergreen or spearmint oil in it to mask the scents of each other and then just put them together. It was probably on here that I read it.
 Rick
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2009, 11:07:52 PM »

Keep in mind that it takes 24 to 28 days from a split to a laying queen.  Not finding eggs and brood before that doesn't mean much.  A frame of eggs and brood is always good insurance.
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