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Author Topic: Drug cost  (Read 3205 times)
Little John_NC
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« on: May 16, 2009, 09:20:40 AM »

It just seems to me that some of our elected rep. put there own interest first.
I just wonder how many of our reps. in congress have ties with medical and drug companies,medical insurance firms  huh Be interesting to see a study done on that  evil
http://web.archive.org/web/20050316092358/http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2635151,00.html
Drug price chart at the time.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050326070849/web.wxyz.com/extras/040205-drugchart.html
This report was done in 2004 I'd hate see what the markup is now rolleyes
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Little John
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"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history."
Winston Churchill


Quote from chronicle of  Marcus Lucanus of the Roman civil war: Caesar said :
"Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!
Caesar men cheered :
" Hail Caesar! We who are about to die salute you!
kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2009, 09:35:19 AM »

there is quite a mark-up on drugs, but not as much as you might think.  at any one time, a pharmaceutical company has 100's of research projects going on.

  out of those projects, a few drugs might look like they will work.  those drugs go into years of testing before they can be approved for use.  of those that go through the testing process, only one or two will be FDA approved.

 for the one or two newly approved drugs, the company will have spent billions getting onto the market.  not only does the company have to recoup expenses, but they have to make enough profit to pay share holders, employees, and make new billions to bring out the next generation of drugs.

they have to do all that before the drugs goes generic and profit is gone.



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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2009, 12:13:45 PM »

I agree with Kathy, to a point.  I have many friends that went to work for GSK.  So, I know what you say is true.  Development of those chemicals is costly.

My only gripe is that the same drug can be bought at a much cheaper price North of the border.
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iddee
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2009, 12:33:37 PM »

North or South of the border, or overseas. We are the ones getting shafted, and that isn't even including the billions of tax dollars the drug companies get for research and development. We definitely pay a lop sided share.
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kathyp
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2009, 04:15:48 PM »

Quote
My only gripe is that the same drug can be bought at a much cheaper price North of the border.


 

other countries put caps on what they will pay drug companies through national health care plans.  they also provide a limited selection to patients. this gets to be an issue when it comes to things like cancer treatment.

we  buy most of our drugs through our insurance or health plan. that makes for bad consumers and bad prescribing.  doctors are also prescribing to avoid being sued. if a patient comes in and asks for the latest, greatest, cholesterol drug, the doc will probably write for it.  if he doesn't and the guy goes home a drops dead of a heart attack, the family will sue him.  if the guy is on the expensive drug he asked for and dies, they will sue the pharmaceutical company. 

cost of litigation is also built into our drug costs.

this is another place where cost would come down if market forces were allowed to work.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Little John_NC
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »

kathyp
I agree alot with what you say here. But what Im reading in this report is the big markup on drugs dose not come from the pharmaceutical company. It would appear that their percentage of markup is some what in line.
  Why is it that the Drug stores like cvs or walgreens etc. have a 4000% markup on drugs  huh I want them make a profit on drugs,but how do you justify these markups  huh

 
 
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Little John
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"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history."
Winston Churchill


Quote from chronicle of  Marcus Lucanus of the Roman civil war: Caesar said :
"Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!
Caesar men cheered :
" Hail Caesar! We who are about to die salute you!
kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2009, 07:19:24 PM »

the short answer is that they can get that price so they charge that price.  if the sales were direct to the consumer and not through insurance companies (for the most part) the cost would no doubt be lower for most drugs. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2009, 08:19:15 PM »

You know those thousand dollar shoes people buy? Same principle.
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Little John_NC
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 10:05:10 PM »

I gotcha Jerry.
Kathyp
Now its making since. So the drug stores max out their profits on the insurance companies.Insurance companies jack our premiums up to cover the cost along with a higher copay each year.
Greater West insurance calls it Consumer-driven approach and focus on company costs. By raising our premiums,copays and deductables and our out of pocket cost to employees the company increase there bottom line $300,000 a year .
No wonder I cant afford it anymore.
Im pass needing KY jelly maybe I can afford some Preparation H . I feel like I been reamed.
Consumer-driven approach sounds like greed to me.........
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Little John
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"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history."
Winston Churchill


Quote from chronicle of  Marcus Lucanus of the Roman civil war: Caesar said :
"Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!
Caesar men cheered :
" Hail Caesar! We who are about to die salute you!
kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 11:58:16 PM »

if it were truely consumer driven, the cost would come down.  the consumer would shop for the best price as they do with all that they buy. 

i know how you feel.  you just want to walk around grasping your ankles.  wait until we have national health care.  your taxes will  go up, your quality of care will go down, and they will tell you how great it is that you are getting "free" health care!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2009, 12:02:10 AM »

It costs a heck of a lot of money to bring a new drug to market.  I don't have a problem with the companies who front that money recovering it. 
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2009, 12:23:30 PM »

You know what would fix this?  If every company lost the tax loophole given by providing insurance.

So instead of having ~250k purchasers on the market, we'd have millions of purchasers.  This would cause the providers to fight for customers and costs would go down.  Sounds simple doesn't it?

Let's hear it for the free market solution!
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 05:14:41 PM »

You know what would fix this?  If every company lost the tax loophole given by providing insurance.

So instead of having ~250k purchasers on the market, we'd have millions of purchasers.  This would cause the providers to fight for customers and costs would go down.  Sounds simple doesn't it?

Let's hear it for the free market solution!

I'm not following you here.
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 06:56:24 PM »

See this post:


Now its making since. So the drug stores max out their profits on the insurance companies.Insurance companies jack our premiums up to cover the cost along with a higher copay each year.
Greater West insurance calls it Consumer-driven approach and focus on company costs. By raising our premiums,copays and deductables and our out of pocket cost to employees the company increase there bottom line $300,000 a year .


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SgtMaj
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 08:01:54 PM »

Yeah except I'm still not seeing how eliminating insurance would cause drug companies to be willing to take a loss.
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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 08:46:32 PM »

if consumers were shopping for their own stuff instead of going through insurance companies, the drug stores would not get away with such a big markup.  the drug companies would make their profit, and the drug stores would have to compete for customers.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Little John_NC
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2009, 10:16:49 PM »

(Little John Tips his hat to Kathyp )Saying thank you for explaining that I could not figure out how to say it.. huh Now that would be a consumer-driven approach grin
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Little John
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"The flags of the Confederate States of America were very important and a matter of great pride to those citizens living in the Confederacy. They are also a matter of great pride for their descendants as part of their heritage and history."
Winston Churchill


Quote from chronicle of  Marcus Lucanus of the Roman civil war: Caesar said :
"Here I abandoned peace and desecrated law; fortune it is you I follow. Farewell to treaties. From now on war is our judge!
Caesar men cheered :
" Hail Caesar! We who are about to die salute you!
dragonfly
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2009, 10:53:53 PM »

i know how you feel.  you just want to walk around grasping your ankles.  wait until we have national health care.  your taxes will  go up, your quality of care will go down, and they will tell you how great it is that you are getting "free" health care!

I work in the industry, and have done so for almost 30 years. Yes, costs will go up, quality will go down, the waits will be long, care will be rationed, and all these people who want nationalized health care will be horrified at what has happened to the quality and service. I have figured, for quite some time, that we will go to nationalized health care. Anyone who wants a good look at what will eventually happen to it should go sit in a county hospital clinic or a VA clinic for awhile.
As for the cost of drugs, there are several factors at play. Drug companies spend millions on R&D for some drugs, and the costs get passed on to the consumer down the road. There's also the push created by drug reps who call on physician offices and give them lots of free samples, which get passed out to patients. After the freebies are used up, the patient is already on said drug, and gets a prescription and sticker shock when they have to pay for it. Many of these drugs are really good quality, but there are older drugs that can do the job for less money. The patient just is not aware and does not really discuss this with their physician. Doctors often don't consider that patients may not be able to afford the prescribed drugs, they just see that it works well for the patient, and if the patient doesn't say "hey, I can't afford this", then the matter is shelved, unfortunately.

If medical insurance was the same type we could commonly buy 30 years ago, where you paid for your own drugs, your own physician office visits, and insurance was used for hospitalization and major medical expenses, the costs of medical care would be much much less than they are today. PPO's and HMO's have increased the cost of care because they have taken the responsibility away from the consumer and created a mindset that everything should be paid for, down to the 4 dollar prescription and the 50 dollar office visit. If people had to be conscious of incurring medical expenses, they would seek treatment only for legitimate medical problems, and not for every case of sniffles or diarrhea.
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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 12:04:31 AM »

yup and

Quote
Doctors often don't consider that patients may not be able to afford the prescribed drugs

very often docs don't know what the stuff costs. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 07:31:26 AM »

if consumers were shopping for their own stuff instead of going through insurance companies, the drug stores would not get away with such a big markup.  the drug companies would make their profit, and the drug stores would have to compete for customers.

Are the drug stores the ones that are responsible for the high cost of medications, or is it the drug companies who have to spend many billions of dollars just to bring a new drug to market?
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 12:11:26 PM »

If medical insurance was the same type we could commonly buy 30 years ago, where you paid for your own drugs, your own physician office visits, and insurance was used for hospitalization and major medical expenses, the costs of medical care would be much much less than they are today. PPO's and HMO's have increased the cost of care because they have taken the responsibility away from the consumer and created a mindset that everything should be paid for, down to the 4 dollar prescription and the 50 dollar office visit. If people had to be conscious of incurring medical expenses, they would seek treatment only for legitimate medical problems, and not for every case of sniffles or diarrhea.

Thanks D'fly.  This is the point I was trying to make.  Too often people abuse the insurance they get from their employer because it's a benefit!  I don't really have to pay for it! 

Make people become responsible for their own health care and how they pay for it...
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dragonfly
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 12:34:35 PM »


Too often people abuse the insurance they get from their employer because it's a benefit!  I don't really have to pay for it! 

Make people become responsible for their own health care and how they pay for it...

And they use it much more wisely.  Our current medical insurance types encourage a sick state of mind. It's one of the primary problems I see happening in the country. A sick state of mind creates a sick state.
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Scadsobees
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 01:39:13 PM »

So what does all that have to do with self-insured companies?  Both companies I've been at in the last 12 years have been self-insured.  And they encourage us to pay attention.

Sure, an insurance company is getting some of our money, but most is coming out of the business. (afaik)
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 02:29:07 PM »

So what does all that have to do with self-insured companies?  Both companies I've been at in the last 12 years have been self-insured.  And they encourage us to pay attention.



Are you referring to self-insured on worker's comp claims? That's the only self-insurance option that I am familiar with.
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SgtMaj
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 09:06:29 PM »

If people had to be conscious of incurring medical expenses, they would seek treatment only for legitimate medical problems, and not for every case of sniffles or diarrhea.

Which is exactly what causes people to delay getting that lump checked out until it's too late.  Good job dragonfly, you just killed a mother of three.  Now the rest of us have to pay for all those orphans and our expenses go right back up.  If that's the policy the RNC is advocating, then it's no wonder they are losing ground, their constituents are dieing by the thousands.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 09:17:43 PM »

SgtMaj wants to pay for our medical bills  yippie chick

What is the address so my Dr. can bill you directly?
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2009, 09:23:13 PM »

Quote
Which is exactly what causes people to delay getting that lump checked out until it's too late.  Good job dragonfly, you just killed a mother of three

that's a BS argument used by the left to sell national health care.

if health care were consumer driven, checking that lump would cost 20 bucks instead of 50.  if you took care of the legal issues that plague doctors, you'd see a lot more of them volunteering their time in this country instead of other countries.

there was a time when health care was not 3rd party payer.  it was not so long ago, but i guess before your time.  people did not go without health care unless they chose to.  if care was expensive, doctors, clinics, and hospitals were free to work out payment plans and help patients get what they needed.  drugs were not so expensive and the corner pharmacist was free to extend credit, or help arrange payment.  sadly, those days are probably gone forever, but the excuse that patients will go without care unless I pay for it, is crap of the highest order.  if that happens it's because the government, insurance companies, and lawyers have made it so.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2009, 09:29:50 PM »

Good job dragonfly, you just killed a mother of three.  Now the rest of us have to pay for all those orphans and our expenses go right back up. 

Somehow, I just don't believe that a breast lump compares, on equal footing, with diarrhea or sniffles. Is this really what you are saying? rolleyes
Is it really this simple in your mind?
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2009, 11:04:51 PM »

Good job dragonfly, you just killed a mother of three.  Now the rest of us have to pay for all those orphans and our expenses go right back up. 

Somehow, I just don't believe that a breast lump compares, on equal footing, with diarrhea or sniffles. Is this really what you are saying? rolleyes
Is it really this simple in your mind?

Yup, because people who put off seeing the doctor for every little thing often end up finding out what they've got too late.  The cancer blogs and forums are full of those stories.  That's ok though, keep killing your constituents... see how far that gets your party.
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2009, 11:13:09 PM »

Quote
Which is exactly what causes people to delay getting that lump checked out until it's too late.  Good job dragonfly, you just killed a mother of three

that's a BS argument used by the left to sell national health care.

Ok Kathyp, I'm going to type this as slowly as I can so that maybe you'll get it... we're not talking about national health care there, we're talking about insurance.

if health care were consumer driven, checking that lump would cost 20 bucks instead of 50.  if you took care of the legal issues that plague doctors, you'd see a lot more of them volunteering their time in this country instead of other countries.

Those "legal issues" as you call them, are bad doctors who cause harm to patients through their negligence/stupidity... I suppose you think that patients who go in for a tonsilectomy and end up getting both legs amputated should just be on their own to urk out a living for themselves because the hospital and doctors shouldn't be held accountable, right?  Is this the morality and family values of the republican party today?  No wonder you're losing ground... you have no morality if you think that's right.

And whatever happened to personal responsibility?  Pardon me for thinking that people should be responsible for what they do.

there was a time when health care was not 3rd party payer.  it was not so long ago, but i guess before your time.  people did not go without health care unless they chose to.  if care was expensive, doctors, clinics, and hospitals were free to work out payment plans and help patients get what they needed.  drugs were not so expensive and the corner pharmacist was free to extend credit, or help arrange payment.  sadly, those days are probably gone forever, but the excuse that patients will go without care unless I pay for it, is crap of the highest order.  if that happens it's because the government, insurance companies, and lawyers have made it so.

Again, we're not talking about nationalized health care here, we're talking about private insurance, which you sure as hell don't pay for my health insurance, I do.  So get over yourself.
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2009, 11:25:51 PM »

darlin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  you sure don't have a clue what i am talking about.  get a few years under your belt and come back to play.  bet your attitude will be different.  at least lets hope you learn how to have a conversation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2009, 01:15:11 AM »

darlin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  you sure don't have a clue what i am talking about.  get a few years under your belt and come back to play.  bet your attitude will be different.  at least lets hope you learn how to have a conversation.

I know what you're talking about, you're talking about nationalized health care... I'm not (and I'm not sure you understand that).  I'm talking about my insurance, which you haven't paid one dime for my insurance, or anyone else's other than yourself (unless you're talking about medicare/medicaid, but you weren't).  If you want to talk about nationalized health care, that's fine, but nationalized health care and insurance are two different beasts. 

Anyway, I'll take the general demeanor of your post to mean that you really hadn't thought about those points and don't have a good response.  Please, by all means, come back when you can think of something.
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2009, 08:56:24 AM »

I may be off the mark here but.... I do know with Auto insurance where one lives has a lot to do with how much you pay. Because of the accident rates (and other stuff). A person might not have had any accidents or moving violations yet hos/her insurance goes up because of others actions in that person's area and age group.

I figure the same holds true with medical insurance. A person might not have seen a Dr. for ten years. No medical claims of any kind yet the rate goes up because others abuse the system and/or runs to the Dr. for every sniffle.
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