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Author Topic: Got my dipping pot!!  (Read 5272 times)
Doby45
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« on: May 13, 2009, 09:00:49 PM »

I can not even begin to describe how close to impossible it is to find a container suitable for dipping hive bodies and supers.  I looked at every possible container, some would work but were more expensive than having one built, other were cheaper but could not be made to work.  But now I have gotten my custom made 24" X 18" X 24" pot/cauldron/tank/vat/whateva you wanna call it.

The picture below shows a super in the tank.  The tank will hold 3 supers, 2 hive bodies or an untold number of bottom boards/tops.



I painted the outside of it with high temp BBQ paint, suppose to be good up to 1200* and I only need about 250*.  Not worried about the inside since the first time I melt the wax and rosin it should pretty much cure the inside.

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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 09:08:36 PM »

Looks like you can actually fit more supers in.  Just turn them on end and put them inside the ones you have stacked. 

Any idea how much it is gonna cost for the rosin and wax to fill that thing huh
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 09:23:40 PM »

Nice.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 09:46:32 PM »

it look great
 Johnny
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Doby45
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 11:09:19 PM »

I have actually been pricing the filling of it.  Undecided  But I have figured out a way to be a wax/rosin ninja and not have to buy AS much in the beginning.  I plan to go to my local Army/Navy surplus store and get one of the rocket ammo cans.  It is about 12"L by 16"W and 36"D, this I plan to cut to just over 24" long and set in the center of the main pot.  I will then fill it with sand.  It will act as a space taker upperer and the sand will absorb the heat and should be able to help me keep the temp constant.  And if I want to eventually take it out (after buying more wax and rosin) then I can just remove it and set it aside.  I am looking at approx $150 to fill it.  Rosin from MannLake and parrafin from some of the candle supply places.  I can get the parrafin for almost a $1lb shipped.
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 07:37:39 AM »

Well good luck,  looking forward to more pictures of it in action grin
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mgmoore7
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 01:25:28 PM »

I got a quote for about $200 to have a tank similar to yours made.  I still want to do it but not willing to put the $500 or so total cost to get it started.  Maybe later.  For now, paint it is.
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Doby45
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 05:52:27 PM »

I got a quote for about $200 to have a tank similar to yours made.

I would say that is the standard quote as that is what I was quoted.  I am looking to expand and in the long run the cost of having to replace 10-20 hive bodies covers the cost of the pot.  That is also why I was looking for people reasonably local to me that might want the benefits of having dipped woodenware without having to belly the up front cost.  It would also help me recoup my cost.  Wink  I already have a few people interested but I am sure more interest will come in the fall and winter when people are doing more with prepping for the next year and not so much current hive management..
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 06:02:14 PM »

I got a quote for about $200 to have a tank similar to yours made.

I would say that is the standard quote as that is what I was quoted.  I am looking to expand and in the long run the cost of having to replace 10-20 hive bodies covers the cost of the pot.  That is also why I was looking for people reasonably local to me that might want the benefits of having dipped woodenware without having to belly the up front cost.  It would also help me recoup my cost.  Wink  I already have a few people interested but I am sure more interest will come in the fall and winter when people are doing more with prepping for the next year and not so much current hive management..

I too have tried to get a few to be interested but I am not confident it is going to work out.  I have one person that said he definately wants to contribute but not sure how much he wants to put in yet and the others methods I have tried to get some interest have turned up none.  If I were not trying to some degree to make these bees pay for themselves, then I may just do it but I am really trying to run this like a business and only do things that I have money for and stop the endless hole in the pocket that these bees have been so far. 
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Doby45
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 06:27:58 PM »

I could not agree with you more.  Everything myself and my friend have done so far has been paid in cash, so there is no "debt" on this stuff.  We also are going at it slow but intelligently.  I see dipping as a way to extend the life of my woodenware into the next millenia and therefore the return on investment highly outways up front cost.  If you only ever plan to have 5 hives then it is NOT a smart move due to costs, but I would say once you hit the 50 mark your equipment has paid for itself.  Same goes with our extractor, we have not gotten it yet but we plan to get one of the powered 18frame jobs for just under $1000.  One of the maxant ones for 10K would be ridiculous and would have to be paid for by bee production but the $1000 one is a reasonable investment on a piece of machinery that can be used for a long time.  grin
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mgmoore7
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 06:46:14 PM »

I could not agree with you more.  Everything myself and my friend have done so far has been paid in cash, so there is no "debt" on this stuff.  We also are going at it slow but intelligently.  I see dipping as a way to extend the life of my woodenware into the next millenia and therefore the return on investment highly outways up front cost.  If you only ever plan to have 5 hives then it is NOT a smart move due to costs, but I would say once you hit the 50 mark your equipment has paid for itself.  Same goes with our extractor, we have not gotten it yet but we plan to get one of the powered 18frame jobs for just under $1000.  One of the maxant ones for 10K would be ridiculous and would have to be paid for by bee production but the $1000 one is a reasonable investment on a piece of machinery that can be used for a long time.  grin

Yes, well, I am at 6 hives now and will be up to about 12 within 30 days if my queen run is successful.  So, I have a ways to go.  I have to consider how many bees, queens, boxes, frames, containers that $500 would purchase.  The reality is that my $ should be going toward things that can have a ROI in the realitive short term.  I completely agree that the long term should be considered but not to the detriment of eating in the short term.  Smiley 

I was fortunate that I was giving a nice 4 frame tangiel extractor for free last year.   That extractor can be converted to a 9 frame radial and powered if desired for about $300 I believe.   

My experence has been that keeping just a few hives just ends up beeing very expensive honey and another hobby I don't need.  There is no economies of scale and thus I am expanding.  Hoping to build up these6 to 12 hives, sell a few for some cash to buy more boxes, buid up the remaining for our late summer/fall flow, and then split again and go into winter (if I can call it that) with about 20 hives.  That will put me in a much better position to actually make enough honey next year to fill the demand I have been getting now.  I should be able to sell some nucs from splits as well.
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Doby45
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 07:22:11 PM »

Well dangnabit Matt, if you weren't so far away we could dip your stuff for ya. Wink  I see nothing at all wrong with your business model and I am sure you will do well.  Our hope is we can get our hives split before winter and go in doubled up as well.
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gaucho10
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 07:40:05 AM »

I'm sorry Doby45, but wouldn't using a small can of melted wax and a paint brush work just as well to seal a wooden box?  Am I missing something here?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 07:50:26 AM by gaucho10 » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 07:54:11 AM »

I'm sorry Doby45, but wouldn't using a small can of melted wax and a paint brush work just as well to seal a wooden box?  Am I missing something here?

No it is not the same.  The process of dipping the woodenware in the hot wax gets the wax deep in the wood.  Much more than just a surface treatment.
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cundald
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 11:10:05 AM »

Doby45,

What method are you going to use to preheat the woodware before dipping.

cundald
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 12:45:47 PM »

I was under the impression that if you take furniture wax, as an example, the wax seals the wood just fine.  The wax just needs to get rubbed in so as to penetrate the fine wood pores.  Oh well...you learn something new every day.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2009, 04:19:25 PM »

Doby45, Been considering building my own. I'd like for you to dip some supers for me so that I can see what the dipping does. I hate to paint. I also have some fire units you may be interested in to use to heat your wax/rosin. I'm close (Douglasville and Cartersville). jsdabbs@yahoo.com
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Doby45
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2009, 04:27:01 PM »

What method are you going to use to preheat the woodware before dipping.

Had not planned to pre-heat the supers nor do I think that you have to.

Doby45, Been considering building my own. I'd like for you to dip some supers for me so that I can see what the dipping does. I hate to paint. I also have some fire units you may be interested in to use to heat your wax/rosin. I'm close (Douglasville and Cartersville). jsdabbs@yahoo.com

Once I get the rest of the materials (rosin & wax) I would be more than happy to dip some for ya.  I will keep in touch and let you know once I have everything.
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mgmoore7
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2009, 05:00:40 PM »

What method are you going to use to preheat the woodware before dipping.

Had not planned to pre-heat the supers nor do I think that you have to.

Doby45, Been considering building my own. I'd like for you to dip some supers for me so that I can see what the dipping does. I hate to paint. I also have some fire units you may be interested in to use to heat your wax/rosin. I'm close (Douglasville and Cartersville). jsdabbs@yahoo.com

Once I get the rest of the materials (rosin & wax) I would be more than happy to dip some for ya.  I will keep in touch and let you know once I have everything.


You don't have to preheat the eq.  You put it in the wax/rosin that is heated to 250-350 degrees F.   It fries it like french fries.  This puts the wax deep in the wood from inside and out.  It leaves the wood looking natural and will likely not ever have to be redone unlike paint. 
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cundald
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2009, 06:19:41 PM »

What is the source of your information for the no preheating method, I would like to look into it more.

cundald
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »

I would also like to get your source for this information.  I have been doing carpentry work for over 30 yrs. and I have treated all sorts of wood with different types of preservatives.  I have used bees wax but I don't believe that beeswax can liquefy to a "fine" liquid long enough to enter the "fine" pores of most type of wood.  Could you divulge your source?  I'm sure that if your source is legit I still won't be able to dip my white oak office desk into a wax container but I might be able to treat the wood before it goes onto my saw table.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 10:00:23 PM »

What is the source of your information for the no preheating method, I would like to look into it more.

cundald

I don't recall where, but I have read that some don't heat the oil but soak it for many hours.  With the oil heated the time per dipping is 3-15 minutes depending on the temperature and if you are wanting to kill any AFB. 
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Doby45
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 12:20:18 PM »

I would also like to get your source for this information.  I have been doing carpentry work for over 30 yrs. and I have treated all sorts of wood with different types of preservatives.  I have used bees wax but I don't believe that beeswax can liquefy to a "fine" liquid long enough to enter the "fine" pores of most type of wood.  Could you divulge your source?  I'm sure that if your source is legit I still won't be able to dip my white oak office desk into a wax container but I might be able to treat the wood before it goes onto my saw table.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 01:15:45 PM »

Beekeepers have been dipping woodenware for many, many years.  How about doing some searching on the Internet and these forums.  Go over the beesource.com forums and search and you will find lots more info.  You are asking for a "source" as if this practice is questionable.  It is not.  I beleive it would be much more common if the costs and storage of equipment was not a barrier to entry.  For a small setup, $500-750 is needed to have have a tank built, buy the wax/rosin, fuel, burner, etc.  Then, it is not as easy do just go do a few boxes.  It is better suited to larger operations that do alot at one time.  Once the investment is made, the amount of wax that is actaully used is very minimal and thus the long term cost is low as well especially since it won't have to be redone.

Here is a website with some info.  He dips in beeswax & tree rosin.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm

And another.
http://www.bobsbeekeeping.com.au/uploads/tips/Hot%20Wax%20Dipping%20of%20Beehives.pdf
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Doby45
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2009, 02:48:52 PM »

You could not have said it better Matt and that is actually what I was saying in my previous post, but I was typing that on my iPhone and evidently the text I typed did not come through.  Google is your friend Gaucho..
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2009, 03:07:12 PM »

I think you might have misinterpreted Gaucho's question.  It seemed to me that she wasn't necessarily questioning the efficacy of dipping so much as the statement that it penetrates deeply into the wood making it better than other treatments.  Which mostly likely it does not penetrate deeply into wood.  I've seen studies in boatbuilding journals about the penetrating depth of epoxies. Granted these aren't molten wax/rosin mixtures, but I think there is some value in the comparison.  Keep in mind they are talking about high quality epoxies like system 3 or west system.  These epoxies are very thin unless you choose to thicken them with a filling agent.  The studies found that much like other coatings the epoxies fail to penetrate very deeply into the wood(we're talking minuscule depths).  Which was a common notion as to why they were so much stronger than other bonding agents.  So it is unlikely that wax/rosin gets it's longevity of performance from it's depth of penetration.  That doesn't mean it doesn't work or isn't worth it.  Just that the "common sense" explanation for how/why it works isn't valid. IMO people have a right to question the validity or source of imformation from someone who posted a statement, without being told to google it.  Not that i"m against people doing there own research because I think they should, but if we make a statement without attributing it to another source it is ours to defend.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2009, 03:24:46 PM »

doby45

Did you consider using bricks or landscape pavers to fill the middle void.  That is what I was planning.  I would think that bricks would hold the heat well and they could be added/removed one by one to easily keep the level appropriate.
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Doby45
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2009, 03:56:02 PM »

I am looking at making a "void" filler for my pot.  Originally I was gonna grab a ammo can that is tall and squarish and fill it with sand and be done with it. The more I thought of it though I decided to build a wooden box from regular ole pine and fill it with something that will negate it buoyancy and that way I can build it exactly to the dimension I want.  I also want the filler box to more or less sit on some little legs so that it will leave a pool of wax/rosin in the bottom that can be heated evenly and moved around.  It would be easier to show/explain than to type it all out.  But the wooden box would just continually get dipped and should be fine.
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2009, 05:44:27 PM »

Thank you fermentedhiker...my thoughts exactly.
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My favorite comedy program used to be Glenn Beck--The only thing is that after I heard the same joke over and over again it became BOOOORING.....

People who have inspired me throughout my life---Pee-wee Herman, Adolph Hitler, George W. Bush, Glenn Beck.
Notice I did not say they were people who I admire !!!
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 08:23:10 AM »

Check out the bobsbeekeeping.com.au/ site it does mention on the top of page 6 about having the temperature of the wood

"The key to successful hot wax dipping is to have the timber very hot.  At this point, the moist, sap and air in the timber is replaced by molten wax.  One apiarist advised: 'If you don't heat your timber to the same temperature as the wax you won't dry it out'."

I am looking forward to having you dip some of my hives in the future and want you to have the best chance of success.

cundald
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Doby45
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2009, 10:23:25 AM »

that is very cool info. I had not heard of heating the woodenware first but it would seem to make sense. Even to the point of opening the pores of the wood some. Maybe Mike could chime in to how well his hives are holding up as he is a dipper and where I got the idea from.
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2009, 02:50:04 PM »

The Department of Agriculture of New South Wales did an article on their website that backed up the hot dipping method.  I can't remember the actual web address I found it on but I printed it out last year and filed it away somewhere for future reference.  It had temperatures, mixtures etc.  I was also very interested in the fact that if you leave the wood in long enough and hot enough you can kill even spores.  So it would be good for rehabbing some used hives.  They actually applied paint to the hives just after removing them from the hot mixture.  They said if you roll on paint immediately while hot it will stick to the wood also.  I want to do some hive dipping some day when I have time.  I have a hive customer that is a welder who would like to trade me for some custom hives to weld me up a tank.

Boy, I just need more time to try all this stuff.

Steve
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 10:54:50 AM »

This may sound like a dumb question but couldn't you just use half of a steel 55 gallon drum as a dipping pot rather than spending money having one made?
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Doby45
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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2009, 05:22:09 PM »

Actually I looked into that.  But the 55gallon drum has a widest width of 22" which would be too small for a standard (10 frame) hive body or super.  I even looked into the 85 gallon drum but they only sold those in one condition around me here in Atlanta and that was NEW and with a price tag of about $185..  With a round container you are also looking at a large quantity of wax/rosin to fill the "rounded" parts of the container.  I assure you I looked into just about everything.  I event wanted to go to an old scrap yard and see if they had tear out sinks and such but no dice.
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2009, 06:00:45 PM »

What about if you cut off the end of a 265 gal oil tank? There's always someone getting rid of those...
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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2009, 12:47:31 AM »

Have not tried wax dipping my self but have some second hand supers that were wax dipped and they have been very well preserved by this process. The research paper on wax dipping in the RIDC web site  (rirdc.infoservices.com.au/items/01-051) provides some very good info on wax dipping.

 

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« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2009, 02:54:53 PM »

cool website on dipping woodenware http://www.vcelky.cz/fotobanka-23.htm
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