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Author Topic: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?  (Read 1321 times)

Offline irekkin

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what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« on: April 27, 2009, 09:58:33 PM »
i hear alot of talk about going to 4.9 mil foundation, and that's ok, things change. evidently somewhere in the past someone thought 5.4 mil was the way to go,and there must have been a good reason since it became the standard size. just wondering. :devilbanana:
when you're dumb, ya gotta be tough.

Offline kathyp

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
many have come to believe that because 4.9 is closer to what the bees would draw in their natural state, it is better for them.  many believe that it helps with varoa mite control.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Offline beedad

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2009, 10:56:13 PM »
and some of us think that no foundation is the way to go.  i go organic and dont want the chems that are in commercial wax.  i have a lang right now with 5.4 that im regressing to 5.1.  so far theyve been ok on the 5.4 anyway.

Offline TimLa

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 11:04:59 PM »
and some of us think that no foundation is the way to go.  i go organic and dont want the chems that are in commercial wax.  i have a lang right now with 5.4 that im regressing to 5.1.  so far theyve been ok on the 5.4 anyway.

My thoughts exactly, for several reasons (many that I plagarize from Michael Bush)
1)  Foundation has chemicals in it
2)  Foundation forces a certain cell size, or at least tries to
3)  Foundation isn't what a swarm (which is pretty much what a package is) would typically find
4)  Bees take a while to build on foundation - my girls on starter strips had outpaced last year's plasticell within 72 hours
5)  They'll build what they think they need, foundation doesn't help
6)  disease control - I think the jury is still out on this one, but it makes sense.

These bees were installed 4/15, and are going crazy, the flow is just starting!  I'll probably have to add another medium mid-May.
Some days you just want to line them all up and start asking questions.

Offline irekkin

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 11:58:07 PM »
thanks for ya'lls imput. i'm not really for or against a particular size or foundation itself, i was just curious how and why it came into use. i think foundationless is a good idea though and i'm definately going to give it a try. i've caught swarms and put them in cardboard boxes because i did'nt have anything else and in no time they've drawn out some of the nicest white comb you ever saw.
when you're dumb, ya gotta be tough.

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 12:18:51 AM »
thanks for ya'lls imput. i'm not really for or against a particular size or foundation itself, i was just curious how and why it came into use. i think foundationless is a good idea though and i'm definately going to give it a try. i've caught swarms and put them in cardboard boxes because i did'nt have anything else and in no time they've drawn out some of the nicest white comb you ever saw.

Back in days of old when knights were bold it was thought that big was better and that a bigger comb would result in larger bees.  Larger bees, after all could carry and harvest more nectar or pollen per trip. 

The reality of it all is that the larger combs made as a result of the large comb pattern on foundation never materialized but it was thought to be too expensive to change things back so for the last 100 years we've been using 5.4 standard brood foundation.
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 11:43:02 PM »
The reason was they thought bigger bees were better bees and bees raised on large cells are bigger bees.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen

Offline Delmer

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 02:07:50 PM »
not to hijack the thread- but what chemicals are in foundation?  The wired foundation I bought said it was 100% beeswax.  Is this something that can leach into the honey?

Thanks

Offline Robo

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 02:39:29 PM »
not to hijack the thread- but what chemicals are in foundation? 

All the chemicals that beekeeps have been treating their hives with.   I would guess a good majority of the wax that is turned into foundation comes from commercial beekeeping operations.   These happen to also be the operations that have huge numbers of hives and don't have the time to use non-chemical methods to deal with varroa.   Also, their livelihood depends on it as well, so they can't risk relying on new/experimental treatments.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 12:55:39 AM »
Beeswax is the perverbial super sponge, it will soak up and retain any chemical that finds its way inside a beehive: pesticides, fungacides, herbicides, pollen dust, apistan, terrimyscin, Check-mite, and so forth.
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: what's wrong with 5.4 mil foundation?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2009, 08:23:00 PM »
>what chemicals are in foundation?

Skip to a little before the middle of this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4115244451959719523
Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen