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Author Topic: Comb on the inner cover  (Read 2239 times)
ccwonka
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« on: April 26, 2009, 10:38:40 PM »

Okay, this is a weird one . . . . for reasons we won't get into, I had to put a medium super with no frames in it on top of a brood box that I was installing a swarm in to the other day.  48 hours later (I know, waited too long) I went to remove the hollow medium and leave them to the deep hive body . . . but low and behold, they have build a MASSIVE amount of natural comb off the roof of the inner cover.

Here's the deal - I'm afraid cutting that comb loose would be paramount to evicting them with their residency so brief . . . I have tmporarily placed the medium and the inner cover directly on the screened bottom board, then placed the deep over that.  I am very seriously considering making this an experiment in "bee freedom" - letting them keep the medium with the "natural area" and then giving them a deep to keep above it (with frames) and adding supers on top as usual . . . .

Other than not being able to track down the queen easily (or occasionaly at all) does anyone see any reason not to just go with this?  I know it's not "right", but the bees are not reading the same books as I am, and I can't really see any harm, as long as I drill another couple holes in the inner cover so they have lots of access to the deep on top of it?
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deerhunter
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 11:08:11 PM »

Cut the comb off and place it in a rack.

I use Rubber bands to hold the comb they will fill in the rest and eat the rubber bands off and you will see them in a few weeks on the ground out side the hive.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 11:22:23 PM »

New comb is very pliable and won't survive removal.  I would adjust the frames and the comb hanging from the inner top so that the comb hands down between the frames.  Then after a few weeks, and the comb has hardened cut it and rubber band it into an empty frame.
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doak
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 11:27:45 PM »

I would wedge my hive tool in at the base and ease the comb off, one at the time. Check and make sure you don't loose the queen. Take each piece and shake the bees off. If the comb is only 3or 4 inches deep. may save a lot of work later.

Or you could go ahead with it. If you can get some holes in the inner cover.
Put the medium on bottom and two deeps on top. Eventually it will become empty then you can take it out of the system.

When I purchased my original boxes with bees in some and some not, One deep had comb built diagonal, attached to the foundation less frames. This colony was 8 boxes high and the 3 bottom boxes was not being used by this colony of bees. These colonies had not been worked for at least 2 + years. One of the bee books, forget which one, shows this type of building.
A shim was be tween the 3rd and 4th boxes Giving them the entrance to their first brood box.

This person had gone in taken full frames of honey out and did not put another frame in it's place.
I found one frame in the top super that had comb attached as far down as 2 more supers.
4 other frames had 2 boxes depth of comb. A BIG MESS.
I got over it. But it was an experience for a beginning beekeeper with no  mentor. Cry Cry Cry Smiley :)doak
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iddee
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 07:08:27 AM »

#1...It's against the law. Removable frames are required in every state.
Do you need a #2?
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 10:18:27 AM »

   Against the Law? I didn't know that there were laws about using frames... I can't find any such code on the books here in CO. Are you sure about this? Or did you just hear it somewhere?

   Of course the real reason is that you will end up eventually with a mess that needs to be cleaned up. At some point in time you will have to manipulate the box or the inner cover. The point of using frames is to make this easy and also to cause the least damage to the hive when you manpulate things. Trust me as someone who thought that it would be ok to leave this kind of thing that later you will regret it or at the least you will be putting off the inevitable. Take care of it now is the best.

Alfred
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ccwonka
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 10:37:18 AM »

Sooooooo - - - Nobody here thinks that a three day (four now) old installed swarm might leave if I cut their pretty new comb out right away?  I am fully aware of the drawbacks of an "unregulated" structure, but I'm rather suprised that nobody thinks they might look for a new home if I cut it away right after they've moved in. . . .

And there is no such law here in Georgia . . . as a matter of fact I am a very paranoid fool and spent a WHOLE lot of time when I was starting up reading all the beek codes in Georgia, and the only one that even comes close to that is that if you sell the bees themselves, it is considered a commercial agricultural practice, and you have to allow state inspectors.  But there are no requirements that you make it easy!  LOL

Oh yeah, and there is FAR too much comb already to let it hang "between" the frames - Once I get this hive "in-line" they might just become designated comb draw-ers if they keep up this rate!!!!

I think at this point I'm just gonna drill a couple extra holes for passage from the lower "wild" to the upper organized and in a couple months, once the upper is established, re-evaluate the situation!
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iddee
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 02:49:49 PM »

OK, Alfred, My typo. Removable combs is the correct term.

And yes there is the same law in Ga. If the combs cannot be removed and inspected individually, you are in violation. Maybe you will want to read a little more.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 03:27:09 PM »

I think the reason iddee is saying that it is against the law is that is goes along the same lines as keeping bees in a skep. The bees cannot be thoroughly checked for parasites, etc in a setup like that and indeed it is illegal in all 50 states. I understand your point though and it would just be neat to leave them alone at least for a little while but.....
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ccwonka
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 04:00:38 PM »

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'd love it if someone could point me to somewhere that that is written down - I just did another search and couldn't find it . . . .

I'd be interested to know if it is indeed a written law, or if it is what the inspector expects and will hassle you without . . . it seems that if I had a natural hive of bees somewhere near my apiary I'd be in vioaltion of this . . . or if my bees built diagonaly and I hadn't checked them before the inspector came out . . . and of course, its not in any of my local association's list of Georgia Beekeeping Laws either . . . As a matter of fact I don't even have to have inspections or register my hives unless I choose to sell the bees themselves according to the Georgia Codes I am reading . . . . .

If anyone has a link please let me know, I'd hate to be breaking the law by having the bees do what comes natural!!  Undecided
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 04:13:10 PM by ccwonka » Logged
alfred
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2009, 04:29:03 PM »

I can't find any such thing in colorado code. I wasn't trying to play semantics or be a jerk I just don't see any such law, although I hear people say it or write about such a law. I think that this is a beek myth.

My thoughts are just based on what works, at least for me. I would get rid of it. If you are worried that they will leave, find the queen and keep her in using and excluder.

Alfred
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Jim 134
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 09:20:17 PM »

OK, Alfred, My typo. Removable combs is the correct term.

And yes there is the same law in Ga. If the combs cannot be removed and inspected individually, you are in violation. Maybe you will want to read a little more.



 Law in MA.

http://www.mass.gov/agr/legal/statutes/apiary/mgl_128_33_maintenance_colony.htm


http://www.mass.gov/agr/legal/statutes/apiary/

 

                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 Smiley
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 05:57:56 AM by Jim 134 » Logged

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sarafina
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2009, 09:30:38 PM »

Dadant claims on its website it is the law in all states to keep bees in a hive with removeable frames for inspection of diseases.

http://www.dadant.com/journal/faq.html

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sarafina
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2009, 09:32:48 PM »

Law in PA also:

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/agriculture/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=127662

Haven't come across anything about CO or GA yet
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ccwonka
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2009, 09:43:31 PM »

Any luck in GA?

I tried calling the state inspector today, but no answer . . . I will try again tomorrow morning.  

Since I don't sell bees, according to the legislation out there for the state, my bees would not fall under his jurisdiction anyhow . . . as a matter of fact, they are the equivalent of a home garden here until I sell "bees, queens, or hive nuclei".

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Scadsobees
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 10:52:27 PM »

None of the wild bees seem to have read that law  rolleyes

I hope the ATF don't come down on me too hard for the log in my back yard I haven't cut open yet... "FREEZE!!! DROP THE BEE GUM AND COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!!!"

"You can have my bee gum when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers..."
 rolleyes

Honestly, its not like they are going to storm your house and confiscated your "experiment" if you want to let it go for a bit, at least until you have them established and to a point that you can get them on regular comb.

Rick
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Rick
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 11:14:55 PM »

OK, Alfred, My typo. Removable combs is the correct term.

And yes there is the same law in Ga. If the combs cannot be removed and inspected individually, you are in violation. Maybe you will want to read a little more.

You have to look in the right place to find it:

It is covered under the Health Codes.  The use of removable frames is required due to AFB infestations that can wipe out hives by the thousands if unchecked.  Disease control, which is AFB, is under the mandate of the Health Departments of the respective states.
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ccwonka
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 11:42:21 PM »

So, after checking the health codes below, as well as the other sites below, it has started to seem humerous to me that we live in a culture where it takes an exhaustive amount of research to find out what is or is not legal . . . no wonder our jails are overflowing!!!

http://health.state.ga.us/index.asp

http://www.easternpiedmontbeekeepers.org/galaws.htm

http://agr.georgia.gov/00/channel_title/0,2094,38902732_133064189,00.html

Anyhow, I still couldn't find it . . . anyone else have any ideas?  I've pretty much decided to leave them as is for a month or so, Once they are drawing out the deep, and the queen is laying there, I'll make sure the queen is physicaly in the deep then swap the medium to above the deep with an excluder between them.  It should make some nice crushed comb honey at the end of the year.

But I am still interested in anyone that can point me to an actual rule on this in GA, I understand the spirit of the rule and that it indeed does exist in other states, I just haven't ever seen or heard of it here!
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alfred
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 12:42:45 AM »

Well I had to look really hard but I did finaly find the colorado bee code.
Sure enough it does say the hives have to have movable combs.
  Part of the Article 25 Colorado Bee Act:

 35-25-108. Beehives equipped with movable combs - certificate - permit.
 
                (1) Beehives shall be equipped with movable combs.

Alfred
 

 
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ccwonka
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2009, 08:33:03 AM »

Well, it looks like everybody's finding it in their state but me! 

I wonder if it might be in paperwork that is part of the certificate you get when you "licence" your bees in GA for sale . . . and if so, can it really apply to those without access to the information?
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