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Author Topic: Gasping for Air?  (Read 10268 times)

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2009, 11:01:17 PM »
As bad as it is that President Bush denied some enemy combatants (terrorist) their due process

And what makes you think it's only terrorists that have been denied due process?  Since there is no due process with these people, the government has not had to prove that they are terrorists.  All they have to do is label someone a terror suspect, they don't have to prove there was any basis for it becase it never goes to a court of law.

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2009, 11:11:18 PM »
If your talking due process of the terrorists,I think the Constitution gives due process to US citizens not enemy combatants!

US citizens no longer have that right under the patriot act.  In the aftermath of 9-11, several hundred US Citizens were picked up, most have never been given due process.  You could just as easily have been among them.


Offline kathyp

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2009, 11:20:45 PM »
please give some examples.  people are picked up all the time for various reasons.  it is true that there are some things that can be done out of the ordinary with the patriot act, but they still must go through a judge.  if you know of some other way things were done, we should know about it.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2009, 11:51:49 PM »
please give some examples.  people are picked up all the time for various reasons.  it is true that there are some things that can be done out of the ordinary with the patriot act, but they still must go through a judge.

No they do not.

Offline dragonfly

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2009, 01:33:09 AM »
please give some examples.  people are picked up all the time for various reasons.  it is true that there are some things that can be done out of the ordinary with the patriot act, but they still must go through a judge.

No they do not.

Any evidence that the rest of us can see? I've been hearing and reading that for years now, and I am no fan of the Patriot Act, but I've never seen anyone put forth evidence of this claim.

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2009, 02:15:57 AM »
If you think you can prove your point or at least cause some hesitation on the reteric then post it. 
If you have an opinion but feel you'll be ridiculed for posting it then stay quiet.

I post my view.  I will offer debate when I believe it is warranted.  I also allow those who wish to howl to do so. 

Staying mute has never won a debate but is has lost a countless amount by default.

PS I'm still waiting for someone to object to my carrying my sidearm openly on my own property.  Hasn't happened yet and I've had a yard full of contractors here all week.
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline kathyp

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2009, 02:32:46 AM »
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ056.107.pdf

some revisions and court challenges since 2001. you may look those up yourself.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/March/06_opa_113.html

some changes that you may look up.

http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/pdf/usa_patriot_improvement_and_reauthorization_act.pdf

05-06 revisions in detail.

while i am not a big fan of some of the things that are in this law, i do not see a viable alternative.  unfortunately, laws are like guns.  they are a tool or a danger.  it all depends on who is holding them.

there are a zillion people out there who would love to splash patriot act abuses all over the front page of the NYTs.  so far, they have a couple of cases that have already been taken care of by the courts.  in the one case that i am very familiar with, the error was not in the law, but with the agency that jumped the gun in the arrest.  if they had been patient i am reasonably certain that they would have made a good case.  instead, the guy was cut loose and awarded damages.

if you have some evidence of the government abusing the rights of citizens, please share it with us......or sell it to the highest bidder.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:13:29 AM by kathyp »
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2009, 08:40:19 AM »
while i am not a big fan of some of the things that are in this law, i do not see a viable alternative.

"Nothing" was a viable alternative.  Planes were not going to keep flying into buildings without this law... I know that comes as a shock to people who have been victims of scare tactics from the pundits, but if you think about it instead of just feeling, I think you'll agree.

unfortunately, laws are like guns.  they are a tool or a danger.  it all depends on who is holding them.

You know, you're right... if there's one thing history has taught us, it's that if there's a potential for a law to be abused, no one will abuse it.  That's why the founding fathers of this country put no thought into puting limits on the pwers of government or defining what rights all people should be guaranteed, regardess of the circumstance.

You know, I think this debate is pretty much over now... I really don't have anything more to say to you, except that I sincerely hope you never get close to holding any office were you'd have any chance to influence the laws.  I would be surprised if you felt any different about me.

Enjoy being in the minority party, because if this is any indication of where the republican party is headed... it's only going to keep dwindling.

You have at least convinced me of one thing... that I should go ahead and switch political affiliations.  I like freedom too much to be a republican any more.

Offline SgtMaj

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2009, 08:49:11 AM »
there's a high correlation between the level of fear and the level of ignorance of a mass of people.

I just liked this quote... thought it appropriate.

Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2009, 12:43:21 AM »
Quote
You have at least convinced me of one thing... that I should go ahead and switch political affiliations.  I like freedom too much to be a republican any more.

Is your name Spectar by chance?

When it comes to Political parties I am not affiliated with any.  I'm a conservative, I used to call myself an independent until they PC'd that one into uselessness.  Now I'm just a considerate voter.

Political Parties can be both good and bad, unfortunately both the major parties in the USA have decided to selfserving instead of serving peoples needs.
I think in the next election you will see at least 2 new political affiliations out there; the Tea Party, and the Conservative Coalition.  Both will make in roads, enough I think to unseat the bulldozer majority the democrats have now. 
I think the Republican party has fragmented and though still in existance will have little effect or recovery. 
The future will have the Democrats on the Liberal agenda, the Tea Party and the Conservative Coalition will make up what has been in the past, the swing votes of both heretofore major parties, and the Republican party will be the ultra conservatives.

SgtMjr: If you want to get in a slugging match, not show any proofs to support your stand, and then attempt to due a "graceful" bow out, your postings in this thread are an excelllent example.  JMHO.
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #110 on: May 04, 2009, 01:36:15 PM »

You have at least convinced me of one thing... that I should go ahead and switch political affiliations.  I like freedom too much to be a republican any more.

I guess we all gravitate to the groups that think like ourselves...  I'm not sure why Specter was a Republican in the first place (ok, the second place, he was a democrat first).

I agree with the "considerate voter" that Brian describes himself as.
Rick

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #111 on: May 04, 2009, 01:44:19 PM »

Hey, to get back on to the original topic, I found this very entertaining and interesting:

Rick

Offline kathyp

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Re: Gasping for Air?
« Reply #112 on: May 04, 2009, 02:15:16 PM »
very good.  we need these things brought down to where we can get our minds around them.  my eyes tend to glaze over when they talk about some of these numbers.  i know i should get it, but instead i experience a system shut down  :-)
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville