Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
October 22, 2014, 08:41:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lathargic Bees (Brand New Hive, New Beekeeper)  (Read 3668 times)
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15195


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2009, 05:26:37 PM »

i was wondering if the syrup can that came with the package was plugged.  did they go 3 days without food while they were in package and in transit.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 06:40:07 PM »

I hate to even bring this up but, could it be that the syrup mix was to diluted? Just a guess. Brad

I did not mix the syrup (the owner of the hive did and she is going to join the forums here) but she loves cooking and is a great cook. She's pretty confident she mixed the syurp correctly.

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 06:41:30 PM »

i was wondering if the syrup can that came with the package was plugged.  did they go 3 days without food while they were in package and in transit.

I'm not sure, I didn't think to check. I'm not sure the original can is around anymore to check :-/

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2009, 10:40:00 AM »

Well, it's 1 month later and the lathargic bee hive is still lathargic inside. It has a fair number of bees coming and going with resources but inside it's pretty sparse. She has 1 frame (both sides) drawn out about 90%. Another frame has 1 side that is drawn out about 20%. It's been that way for a few weeks now. Everything seems to be functioning, i.e. we see the queen, eggs, larva, capped pupa and honey but simply in very low numbers. I was with her on the inspection she did this past Saturday and you can see where some pupa has emerged but you can also count the number of capped pupa, I believe it was about 25 cells capped w/pupa.

My general thought is that this hive is simply going to keep working but dwindle in numbers as the older bees begin to die and the fact that there are not enough new bees coming to replace them, the hive will eventually die out sometime in the next month or two.

What do you think?

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2009, 11:29:52 PM »

Get a frame of brood and place it in the lathargic hive, bees and all, just leave an empty frame between what's already there and the new brood frame or you can cut a piece of news paper to fit between the frames and fold over the top of the new frame as a combine.  You might see a syupercedure cell created, if so let them do it.  I think you have a defective queen and the bees don't want to make a replacement for her due to unsatisfactory eggs from which to create a new queen.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2009, 12:35:03 AM »

A defective queen would cause the very low amount of comb to be drawn out?

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2009, 01:28:03 AM »

a defective queen would cause the very low amount of comb to be drawn out?

Jeremy

The bees will only draw comb to  the extent that they can stand on.  So if a hive has a defective queen it is possible that the queen's egg production might not even keep up with the die off of exhausted workers.  If you want 10 frames of drawn comb in a hive then you must have enough live bees to completely cover both sides of those 10 frames.  If there is only enough bees to cover 3 frames then you'll only get 3 frames of comb. 
Once brood hatches and the population increases they will begin to draw more comb for the additional bees.  The one exception to this is drawn and capped stores.  Once a frame of stores is fully capped it doesn't need bees tending it.  Brood frames, on the other hand, always need bees attending them. 
The only way to get more comb is to have more bees in the hive.  At the end of the season, winter, the majority of the population has died off and the newer hatched brood, along with the queen, then overwinter in the upper part of the broodchamber and fetch stores from the storage frames for feeding the cluster.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2009, 09:20:03 AM »

I think the problem is she had a package with more than normal count of dead bees and then a feeding problem to start with. All the comb that is drawn (1 1/2 frames) have bees on them. THere are not bees standing in places that are not drawn. So, she just has a very low bee count. For that, the queen does not have many places to lay, thus they will eventually die out as there are not enough places to lay to reproduce even the small number of bees she currently has?

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
pgayle
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 13

Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma


« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2009, 04:52:55 AM »

I had a hive last year that was just like yours.  You described it well and the video helped.  (My other hive was fine, both italian nucs from the same local guy)  Bees "falling off the porch" right from the start.  I picked up a few hundred "crawlers" and sent them to the USDA bee lab.  They had a high Nosema count and I treated.  They did seem to get better, but the queen wasn't laying well.  I requeened, and the bees killed that one.  I gave them brood from the strong hive.  They eventually made a queen from the donated frames.   A couple more setbacks over the summer, same symptoms, I won't go into detail.  They looked strong going into winter. 

They died in late winter with plenty of stores.  I sent a frame from the deadout to the bee lab and diagnosis was varroa, and they found a few with tracheal mites. 

The bee lab doesn't check for the viruses that are carried by the mites.  After reading, I thought that they may have had one of the paralysis viruses.

The other hive did great, came through winter strong.  The queen is still laying well, good pattern.  There was enough brood to make up two strong nucs for 2 new russian queens. 

Now, I am seeing the crawlers again in front of my "strong" hive, and also in front of one of the two nucs.
Keep us posted with your observations. 
Logged
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2009, 02:05:39 PM »

I think the problem is she had a package with more than normal count of dead bees and then a feeding problem to start with. All the comb that is drawn (1 1/2 frames) have bees on them. THere are not bees standing in places that are not drawn. So, she just has a very low bee count. For that, the queen does not have many places to lay, thus they will eventually die out as there are not enough places to lay to reproduce even the small number of bees she currently has?

Jeremy


In that case you need to make the bees make a place for her to lay eggs.  Put an empty frame into the center of the hive where the bees will draw it out as brood comb.  If she fails to lay then you need to replace the queen.  Also, expect a supercedure cell to appear if she does begin to lay.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2009, 02:16:07 PM »

In that case you need to make the bees make a place for her to lay eggs.  Put an empty frame into the center of the hive where the bees will draw it out as brood comb.  If she fails to lay then you need to replace the queen.  Also, expect a supercedure cell to appear if she does begin to lay.

I'm not sure what you mean. Everywhere that bees are standing is drawn out into comb. Every open cell either has eggs, larva, capped brood, pollen or honey. If I have Anne (the one who's hive it is) add a new frame inbetween two that are semi drawn out, they will abandon where they are and draw that one out, thus providing some more open cells for the queen to lay in?

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2009, 03:01:41 PM »

Well, let me see, we were talking about a lathargic queen and then there was this entry:
Quote
I think the problem is she had a package with more than normal count of dead bees and then a feeding problem to start with. All the comb that is drawn (1 1/2 frames) have bees on them. THere are not bees standing in places that are not drawn. So, she just has a very low bee count. For that, the queen does not have many places to lay, thus they will eventually die out as there are not enough places to lay to reproduce even the small number of bees she currently has?

Which prompted my answer about inserting an empty frame in the middle of what should be the brood chamber.  Clear now?
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2009, 05:34:22 PM »

Well, let me see, we were talking about a lathargic queen and then there was this entry:
Quote
I think the problem is she had a package with more than normal count of dead bees and then a feeding problem to start with. All the comb that is drawn (1 1/2 frames) have bees on them. THere are not bees standing in places that are not drawn. So, she just has a very low bee count. For that, the queen does not have many places to lay, thus they will eventually die out as there are not enough places to lay to reproduce even the small number of bees she currently has?

Which prompted my answer about inserting an empty frame in the middle of what should be the brood chamber.  Clear now?

Yes, but I don't think the queen was ever in direct question. One mentioned that it might be the queens fault, but the queen seems to be doing all that she can given what she has to work with. Now, about inserting an empty frame... They really only have 1 frame drawn (90% on both sides) and then the frame next to it is only drawn about 20%. So where exactly would I insert this frame and why would it matter if I inserted an empty frame when the frame right next to it is only 20% filled (and has been like that for the last 2 weeks)?

I am simply thinking that her hive is going to fail this year, I don't see a way out of it, but I'm a new beek so I was hoping for some magic solution to tell her.

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 11:05:33 PM »

I didn't realize you only had 1+ frame of bees in the hive, I assume they're in a nuc, if not they should be.
Was this queen by chance from an OB hive?  If so you might have to add a few frames of bees and brood to give the queen the message she has more room now.  Bees from OB hives will sometimes fail to develop beyond the 2-3 frame stage as that is what they've become accustomed to. 
I would make sure they're in a nuc and add 2 frames of bees and brood and then see what happens.  They should draw that 20% frame out and start on the 5th frame and the queen should begin to lay on more than 1 frame.
If that doesn't correct the problem I would recommend dropping the queen is a vial of alcohol and using her as a swarm lure base.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
jeremy_c
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 213


Location: Summit Co, Ohio


« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2009, 08:20:33 AM »

I'm going to show my newness and ask what an OB hive is? No, they are not in a nuc. Her (Anne) and I purchased our packages from the same place, picked them up together. She bought 1 package, I bought 2 packages. Our bees are at different locations. Mine are doing fantastic. Her's are the bees described here. She is not computer savy, I've asked her to join and she tried a few times but failed (for a reason unknown to me). So, we both purchased the same hives even to place them in, a basic beginners hive w/SBB and paraffin dipped. The only difference between her hive and mine when we started was that she seemed to have a higer percentage of dead bees at the bottom (I wish I could quantify this, but I can't as I don't remember, from now on I will start paying more attention to this) and she used a top trough feeder and I used a 1 gallon pale feeder. They were 2# Italian packages. They were installed on Apr 20th. Last week I added on a second deep to one of mine and I'll probably need a second deep on the 2nd hive in the next week or so.

She only has the one hive and I don't want to be stingy but I am not sure if I can take a frame or two from my hives and put in hers, would I be risking my hives for the winter given this was their first year and they were only 2# packages to start? Also, how would we transport the frames to another location, being new beeks, we don't have extra equipment laying around. I am sure she will be disappointed if her hive fails this year, but she understands it's part of the learning experience. I guess the thing we would really like to understand is why her hive failed so maybe we can do something about it next time around if we see the same symptoms. I am sure this is hard to judge not knowing what % of the bees were dead on arrival. That may be the crucial piece of information we do not have :-/

Jeremy
Logged

Bee section of my blog: http://jeremy.lifewithchrist.org/category/bee-keeping.html ... has stories, pictures and videos of a new beekeeper.
NasalSponge
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 271


Location: OKC


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2009, 03:17:35 PM »

OB = observation hive
Logged

Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2009, 09:09:16 PM »

Quote
She only has the one hive and I don't want to be stingy but I am not sure if I can take a frame or two from my hives and put in hers, would I be risking my hives for the winter given this was their first year and they were only 2# packages to start? Also, how would we transport the frames to another location, being new beeks, we don't have extra equipment laying around. I am sure she will be disappointed if her hive fails this year, but she understands it's part of the learning experience. I guess the thing we would really like to understand is why her hive failed so maybe we can do something about it next time around if we see the same symptoms. I am sure this is hard to judge not knowing what % of the bees were dead on arrival. That may be the crucial piece of information we do not have   :-/ 

If you take 1 frame of bees/brood from each of your hives it won't affect your hives that much as they are still in the heavy buildup mode.  It also shouldn't affect your hives ability  to overwinter as you still have plenty of time and forage to build both hives up to double deeps, or the equivalent for winter.  If you have a nuc box pull a frame of bees and brood from each hive and place them in the box, then put in 3 empty frames to  space and keep the frames from bouncing around.  If you use the top and bottom for the nuc just plug the entrance with folded door screen so the bees get air.  I usually fold a 4 inch wide strip of window/door screen over on itself to plug the entrance.  Then take them over to your friends house and install the bees, one frame on each side of the bees already in the hive.  The extra bees from 2 sources, the fact that there is drawn comb and brood, and placed on each side of the current brood nest will confuse the bees sufficiently to combine them without have to resort to other methods.

The bees and brood will be find transported that way for several hours.  The brood is the most delicate and as long as there is bees to cover the brood then you can wait up to 6 hours if you have to.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.706 seconds with 23 queries.

Google visited last this page October 07, 2014, 01:10:44 PM