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Author Topic: Going to help with cutout tomorrow!!!!  (Read 3023 times)
annette
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« on: April 17, 2009, 09:59:56 PM »

Well the day has arrived. We take the bees out of the shed.

I am going to Sutter Creek to meet up with 3 other beekeepers. One of the beeks is a teacher of beekeeping at the Waldorf School in San Francisco and he is the man who will show and teach us.

The other 2 beeks are like me, just wanting to learn something new and help

I bought a disposable camera so I do not have to worry about ruining my good camera. Hopefully I can get lots of photos, but I know already the space we are going to work in is very cramped.

Wish me luck.

Annette
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JP
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2009, 10:02:11 PM »

Good luck Annette! Don't forget to bring your lucky umbrella.


...JP
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2009, 10:13:46 PM »

The umbrella will stay at home and guard the other hives. Don't want a sticky umbrella after all grin grin
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JP
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2009, 10:16:42 PM »

Alright then, but if you don't find the queen, you'll know why.


...JP
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annette
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2009, 10:19:00 PM »

 shocked shocked
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JP
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2009, 10:27:43 PM »



 shocked shocked shocked


...JP
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2009, 10:28:36 PM »

good luck and HAVE FUN!!!!!
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2009, 10:34:03 PM »

Good Luck Annette!!!!!!!
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RayMarler
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 12:42:28 AM »

Best of luck Annette, hope you have lots of fun and learning! It is forecast to be the best of weather, I think it'll go smooth for you all.

I don't blame ya, I'd leave my red umbrella at home also, if I had one!
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 03:22:53 AM »

Ray, we should all be so lucky to have a magic red umbrella like Annette's!


...JP
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annette
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 12:26:34 AM »

Well the cutout is complete.  I am still recovering from this experience as it was an extremely exhausting day for me. We started at 11:30 and got done around 3:00.  There were 6 people there total and at first I thought it would be way to many people, but actually it was a good thing because we all had jobs to do.

I learned how to place the rubberbands into the frames, I learned how to cut the combs very carefully with a knife to cause the least amount of injury to the bees. This beekeeper was supposed to bring a beevac, but did not and it made things much harder. After he would cut out the comb and hand it to us, we would place the combs into a designated box. If it had honey in it, then into the honey box. If it was empty comb, then into another box.

One thing he did that I did not agree with, he had me rubberbanding some of the honey combs into the frames and this was hard, sticky work. The combs were so hard to get into the frames. He wanted lots of the honey placed in the supers. I thought this was ridiculous.

The other problem was there was no brood whatsoever and he thought this hive might be queenless. This hive swarmed about 2 weeks ago (Ray got this swarm with me)and there was evidence of many empty queen cells in the wall. But we never did see any brood or eggs anywhere in that wall. I was wondering if perhaps there might be a virgin queen or a queen on a mating flight?Huh
So basically the super was filled with just honey and Keith the main beek, just dumped as many bees into the super as he could and cleaned out all the wax from the wall. That is how we left the place.  There were so many bees just flying around and laying all over the ground. I felt so bad for them. When we left I felt like something had been left undone. You know a nagging feeling.

Seemed like we should have waited until evening to get most of the foragers.

I don't know much about cutouts, but this just felt unfinished to me.  Perhaps if we had the beevac, then we  just would have gotten all the bees into it. It would have made things easier to work and not so many bees being killed.I did learn a lot and now I know what to do. How to rubberband the frames, how to cut the wax out gently. But also without knowing if there was a queen and there did not seem to be a queen, this left things feeling unfinished also.
 
I will be posting photos later on when I get them developed. I took a cheap disposable camera and have to get the photos onto a CD. Also one other guy took lots of photos and promised to send them to me also.


I am glad I went, but not sure if this is my cup of tea. Perhaps in an emergency I would know what to do now,but very hard work.



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JP
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 12:35:25 AM »

It sounds like y'all did not get a queen, there may have been a virgin in the hive but who knows.

If it was queenless and the virgin is still there somehow the colony could start over if enough bees were left behind.

I know I'm probably not getting the entire gist of what went down here but if it were me doing the removal I would have left at dark with the vast majority of the bees from this hive.

...JP
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annette
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 12:48:38 AM »

It was just 3 -1/2 hours of slowly cutting the wax combs from the wall to not injure the bees, and then the guy used a brush to sweep as many bees into a box as he could and then dumped these bees into the super where all the honey was. This super he took with him and all the boxes of honey and empty wax combs.

I felt that the wall was left unfinished. I felt there were to many bees still flying all around and so many small clusters of bees just all over the place when we left.

I am sure the bees will return to that spot again.

 
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RayMarler
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 01:07:31 AM »

In my own opinion, the boxes of banded in frames should have been left in place until after dark, or at least up until right at dark before removing. Also, I've seen this wall the bees were in, it would have been very considerate to put the wall back together and plugging all entry holes before leaving with the bees, as it would only have entailed nailing the piece of plywood back up in place. That is assuming the plywood was removed in a manner that did not destroy it, as it should have been. Just my thoughts, perhaps I have no room to speak as I could not bee there myself to do the cuttout.
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 01:21:02 AM »

I thought so also. But when I asked  Keith if he was going to leave it that way,he said yes. He said the wall should be left open or else the bees will go back in.


He said he spoke to the homeowner about it.

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2009, 01:47:53 AM »

can't wait for the pictures.  you are ready to do your own now?  grin  glad you went.  don't feel bad about the leftover bees.  it's nice to be able to wait, but sometimes you can't.  distance and stuff.....

i don't do the putting back together, but that's the agreement i have with the owner before hand.  out-buildings are bee magnets.  i have done several that have had multiple hives in them over the years.

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2009, 01:57:36 AM »

There's a hard way and an easy way to do cutouts, sounds like you had a hard way adventure.

Rubberbanding is rough on the comb, the bees, and the handler when it is compared to using a cutout frame like the swarmframe.htm at beesource or a variation thereof.

Doing a cutout when the queen was known to swarm two weeks ago almost guarantees the death of the colony. There's no brood, the queen may have mated, but the brood comb is almost certainly empty until another week goes past. The probability of a successful removal is much higher after four weeks because even if you miss the queen, there are eggs to ensure the genetics can be kept.

Cutouts should either finish at the end of the day, so foragers can be gathered, or like others have said, the box should have been left behind on the off chance that there was a queen in the box. If not  in the box, the foragers would have clustered in the old space and been easy to retrieve.

> He wanted lots of the honey placed in the supers.
> I thought this was ridiculous.

I don't see the point either. Combs of beebread and honey can be useful, but honey can go in a bucket.

Look on it as reverse-learning, you now know what does not make sense and what not to do if you try another.

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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 08:36:43 AM »

Sorry for your feeling Annette. But I am glad you went and the experience and confidence you came away with. Congratulations are in order for the effort!!! Salute! Best wishes on the next one!
Patti
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 10:30:22 AM »

Annette, I am sorry it did not go as well as you had hoped.
 As someone else said it though, all you can do now is use it as a learning experience  and you will know what you do not want to happen on your next one.
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2009, 11:34:48 AM »

i do not have a beevac, so what i do is use as little smoke as possible.start on one side of the hive cut out 1 or 2 of the combs ,use a brush and sweep all of the bees into my box then rubber band the comb in less bees die this way , then start on the other side useing the same method working to the center, i feel less smoke queen does not get runny, i also place 2 rubber bands on each side of the frames before i start cutting.most of the honey goes into a bucket. have done a total of 4 cutouts the first was a mess and did not get the queen,last 3 including one on saturday i got the queen and did not kill alot of the bees.
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annette
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2009, 12:15:35 PM »

Yes, I still learned lots even if it is not what I would do. Thanks for all the advice.  That is very interesting about the cutout being broodless because they just recently swarmed. It makes sense though and he might actually find he has a queen. He was going to give it a frame of eggs when he got home just in case they needed it anyway. If I lived closer to that cutout, I would love to go back today and see what is left, maybe a good size cluster. 

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JP
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2009, 12:26:30 PM »

I will assume he has quite a few bees in his box, in fact he should have a very large amount, just because a good many were placed in there.

He will most likely need to add a couple of frames of brood with eggs/very young larvae so they can make a new queen.

Think of what you all did as a trap out. You didn't get any brood but got all of the comb out with bees that will make a new queen from another hive. Their genetics won't live on but what bees were saved will be put to good use and will live out their lives being happy.

What's even better is all the comb was removed, which you can't do in a trap out, so this has worked out even better for the home owner.

Now the rub lies in how many bees were left behind and if by some chance a virgin was mated but didn't have the chance to start laying yet, with enough bees they could start another colony in that same building.


...JP
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2009, 12:28:49 PM »

annette, if he got the queen, or they were queenless, most of the bees that were left have probably moved on.  i have made follow-up calls on a couple of my distant cutouts to make sure all was well.  on those, i knew i had gotten the queen.  by the next day, the left over bees had pretty much gone.  i suspect it was a bit like the shake-out i did the other day.  the bees just moved on.  there are always stragglers  smiley

i wonder if he didn't take time because he figured he was probably not getting a good hive out of it?  anyway....they all are different and they all are a learning experience, until you get to the JP level!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2009, 12:35:32 PM »

I would love to go back and look, but I really am so darn tired from yesterdayj. I hope they have dispersed and aren't clustered there with a queen. Wow, I have an idea. One of the beeks from yesterday lives close by and I am going to ask him to take a look and see whats up. I am going to call him right now. See you later.
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2009, 12:49:07 PM »

From what I have read in the thread, you will not like what you would see. Lots of bees, lost and clinging with no home. I captured a swarm a few weeks ago. I went back to the spot several days later and there was a tea cup ball of bees waiting.....for mama to return.  Being a softee, I gathered them and reuninted them with the rest of the swarm in their new home.

 
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JP
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2009, 12:57:17 PM »

This is why I finish my removals come late evening/dark. If I have to leave the job before dark, I will leave the hive behind with the queen caged and pick it up another time.This way you greatly reduce the number of bees that are left behind.

Swarms are about timing and you have to get them when you can, there are usually anywhere from a few to as many as 20 bees that you routinely cannot take with you, the stubborn ones, once you leave a swarm call.

That colony lives on however and that is the main focus in capturing and relocating a swarm.


...JP
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2009, 01:09:42 PM »

OK so I contacted the beekeeper who lives close by and he wants to help.  He is a newbee and will require some help with this.  I told him to go back this evening with a box and see if there is a large cluster still hanging from the wall.  I told him to sweep the cluster into a box and then just wait around until dark to see if all the bees are going into the box.

If there is a virgin queen or a queen, then I guess all will be well and  he can take the box home.

What if he finds a whole bunch of little clusters all over??? (likely scenario) Should I tell him to sweep as many bees as possible into a box and then wait until dark and go home with as many bees as possible.  Perhaps he can just dump them in front of his other new packages and hopefully they will find homes?? I know he doesn't have any combs of brood yet as he just started his packages on Friday.

He also wants to put that wall back together and seal it up with some caulking. I guess he can do that if there aren't any bees still clinging to the walls.  I hope he doesn't find a real mess out there tonight.

Any suggestions??? I expect him to call me this evening when he gets out there.

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JP
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2009, 01:16:38 PM »

He will possibly find no bees at all or a cluster of bees in one spot. He should bring a piece of old comb with him to place in the box, a little dab of lemon grass would be nice also but not really necessary.

If for some reason a virgin made it and there are a bunch of bees, then he can put the bees in the box with a flap cut out like I do on swarms and they should march in.

Have him spray the cluster with sugar water 1/1 first if there is a cluster so they can't fly and the entire process will be a breeze.

Someone at some point needs to close up the wall and caulk and seal openings to bee proof the void space.


...JP
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2009, 01:23:40 PM »

OK he said he would bring some pieces of their own comb that we took out last night and would spray the bees with the sugar syrup. I told him about the boxes you use and he is going to bring one that he has. (see I am learning from you JP and it has all sunk in)

He was going to put the wall back together and caulk it tonight if he can get all the bees out.  This guy has the makings to be a wonderful beekeeper.   His heart is totally there and he just loves it.

I will let you know how it goes for him.  Hopefully you will be here on the forum tonight in case I need to give this guy some help. Soon as I hear from him, I will get onto the forum and post what is happening. There really should not be any surprises, right??

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JP
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2009, 01:31:32 PM »

The only surprise could be that there was a queen that was missed and with enough bees they have entered another void space in that building and are starting over.

Have him go an hour or so before dark or have the home owner go by and varify whether they see any "traffic" from bees, coming and going from the building.

This is a sign that there is an active colony starting up again.

I'm pming you my C#, call me if you need me.


...JP
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2009, 03:26:00 PM »

JP,

I wish I had a neighbor like you.  You have been most helpful in this situation as well as others.  This forum is great!

Thanks,

Mark
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2009, 03:55:52 PM »

I agree with you Mark. This is indeed a wonderful forum where we help when we can.


...JP
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2009, 07:34:35 PM »

Well update!!!

Just received a call from the beekeeper who was going to go tonight and apparently he called the homeowner to get permission to visit that shed tonight just one more time.  The homeowner said no. He felt that we did all we could do yesterday and he would seal up the shed himself. I think because it is a rental property he doesn't want us to keep bothering the renters.

Apparently he spoke to the main beekeeper (named Keith) who took the bees yesterday and was told he had the queen so there should not be any more problems with bees in the shed. But when Keith left yesterday he was pretty sure he did not have a queen. So at this point I do not know what is really happening, but I do know we cannot check out that shed anymore no matter what the truth is.

Just have to drop it now, although I plan on calling that beekeeper Keith to find out if he really got the queen.

End of story.


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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2009, 07:43:03 PM »

"End of story."

Or is it?

We shall see.

Kudos to you Annette for showing up and getting your hands dirty. I hope you didn't break a nail! Wink


...JP
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"Good friends are as sweet as honey" Winne the Pooh

My pictures can be viewed at http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus
and
http://picasaweb.google.com/112138792165178452970

My Youtube videos can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=JPthebeeman&aq=f

My website JPthebeeman.com http://www.jpthebeeman.com/jpthebeeman/
annette
Galactic Bee
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Location: Placerville, California


« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »

"End of story."

Or is it?

We shall see.

Kudos to you Annette for showing up and getting your hands dirty. I hope you didn't break a nail! Wink


...JP

Nails OK, got stung bad through my bee suit right on my elbow. It is swollen right now. How the heck did they get me through the suit???
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kathyp
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Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 10:28:55 AM »

when they are angry off, they can sting deep! 

after i did my first cutout, i spent a great deal of time chewing over what i did wrong and what i could have done better.  even dreamed about it that night.  to make matters worse, i didn't save the hive.  the whole thing was a bummer.  the good thing was that i learned a lot, and after that one, the next few were a piece of cake.

can't remember what my point was when i started this....i am getting old.....guess it was just that you take what you can from the experience and not worry about it after that.  i have a feeling that when you do your own, it will be done well.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
annette
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Location: Placerville, California


« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2009, 07:31:01 PM »

Well I finally got the CD on the cutout I helped to do a couple of weeks ago.

I know you have seen more exciting photos of cutouts, but I said I would share these.





The holes up above on the left(those 2 holes) is where the bees were going in and out



The guy here is the main beekeeper who guided us through the process.


Mostly honey and no brood.





Nice looking comb




Well the experience was priceless and at least now I can consider doing something like this if I need to or want to.
Annette
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Irwin
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Location: Lakeside OR

howdy all


« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2009, 08:43:33 AM »

Thank's for sharing Annette those are some nice pic's Smiley
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