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Author Topic: messed up hive  (Read 2471 times)
kathyp
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« on: April 16, 2009, 04:10:44 PM »

this is one of last years cutouts.  they have done reasonably well, but now this.  i had already tried to put a frame of brood in, but they did nothing with it.  to late i guess.







so....after i shake them out, will it be safe to put a frame of brood in immediately, or should i wait a day?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2009, 06:37:29 PM »

Looks like a laying worker, if those are eggs close to the top of the cell.  I had a situation similar last year where they wouldn't raise a queen, ended up getting a queen. 

David
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fermentedhiker
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 06:41:36 PM »

Were you able to locate the queen?  By saying they didn't do anything with the brood you added do you mean they ignored it and let it die or just that they failed to make queen cells?
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 06:49:05 PM »

i'm sorry.  i should have been more clear.  without a doubt i have a laying worker.  scattered brood and drone cells.  i knew they were queenless and gave them brood over a week ago.  i found this on another frame today.  my question is about how long i need to wait to give them brood after i shake them out.  i'd rather not spend 23 dollars on a queen when i have a couple of really nice hive from which i may take brood.
they are tending the brood i gave them, but they did not attempt to make a queen.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 07:33:10 PM »

I'm too new to answer your question, but I believe I have seen it referred to in the past.  Seems like it was stated that it may take several successive introductions of new brood frames before they get with the program and make a new queen.  I don't remember what the interval was though........sorry.  My instinct says that introducing the new frame at or near emergence of the added brood would be about right, but I'm just guessing Smiley
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iddee
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2009, 08:40:46 PM »

When I have a laying worker hive like that, I shake them out about 50 feet in front of my other hives. They will take up with the other hives, as in drifting.

Then If i want to replace it, I make a nuc with one frame from each of 4 or 5 hives and let them raise a queen.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 08:46:23 PM »

my first laying worker  smiley

ok, so this hive is finished.  i can't shake them out, let them return, and requeen?  the layer will return,  unlike a queen that i might shake out?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 08:58:10 PM »

ok you say you have a laying worker, are you seeing multiple eggs in the cells? if not then I say you dont have a laying worker, I cant see in the cells with those pictures, might be your old queen started failing and laying just drone cells and the new queen just hasn't started laying yet, we have had some bad weather lately, a laying worker will not just lay one egg in the cells and they will not be at the bottom of the cell, they will be stuck to the sides of the cell, I have seen some with about 10 eggs in a single cell, if you have multiple eggs in the cells then a laying worker is what you have, then its time to shake them, with them not working the frame of eggs you put in tells me they have a queen , she is just a late starter, had one go a month before where I put 2 frames of brood in in 2 weeks and they did nothing, never seen any eggs then check the day I was going to shake them out and 4 frames full of eggs and young larva. show me some pictures or tell me you see mutiple eggs in cells and I will say you have a laying worker...
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 09:06:52 PM »

I have just seen to many hives look like this that was queen right, mutiple eggs in cells is a tell-tell that you have a laying worker. never seen one lay single eggs in cells.
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kathyp
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 09:10:11 PM »

at my age, i am lucky to see the cells, never mind the eggs.  

let me put it this way.  i am not 100% sure that i have a laying worker, but i am 98% sure.  we have a short season.  i have to make a decision about this hive.  all other hives are doing well and queens laying well.  i was pretty sure a couple of weeks ago that this one was queenless.  now i have random brood, all drone.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 09:24:45 PM »

well if you are sure then shake them out, you could loose the new queen if you have one that way but if not (remember she nose where they hive is and if she isn't laying could fly right back in it) your newly bought queen will die, just watch what the bee's do to the queen cage after some time and make sure they will except her. good luck!!
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Shawn
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 09:28:17 PM »

I think in picture two you can see the eggs on the side of the cells towads the top and middle.
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 09:47:06 PM »

good eyes!!  next time i take pictures i'm sending them to you!  i'll double check with reading glasses after the rain tomorrow, but i think you are right and that pretty much nails it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 09:50:32 PM »

I tried to see the cells, no zoom option, never seen or heard of a laying worker laying eggs at the top of a cell, middle yes but nothing at the tops of cells..
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iddee
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 11:59:31 PM »

>>>>the layer will return,  unlike a queen that i might shake out?<<<<

There is not "a laying worker". There are "laying workers". Meaning there are many.
From the photo, the hive seems to be low on bees anyway, so a fresh nuc may still be your best bet. Whether it raises it's own queen or you purchase one, the shake and replace method eliminates many guesses and gives you a strong nuc with a fresh queen. No guess work.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2009, 12:12:07 AM »

actually quite a few still in there.  it's a double deep and this was a frame off the top.  will follow your advice.  no point in wasting bees or brood, not to mention time.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 12:15:16 AM »

I would go with Iddee's suggestion.  

From what I see of the drone cells on that one frame I would suspect a young drone laying queen over a laying workers.  Laying workers are always plural and what I see is more indicative of a single bee.
Though there's always tje possibility that the nurse bees are being very hygenic and cleaning out every cell that has multiple eggs.
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2009, 07:00:14 PM »

another question.

shook out this hive.  as promised, the bees went to other hives.  they also went into the cutout from last weekend which has made queen cells, but has not active queen.  will my laying worker(s) be a problem for this hive?  that would be a bit of a bummer.  wish i'd thought to ask before.........
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
iddee
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2009, 08:20:17 PM »

No problem. A queen cell is as good as a queen.
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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kathyp
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2009, 08:35:02 PM »

thanks.   that was my hope!!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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