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Author Topic: Liar Liar ....  (Read 4327 times)

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 01:39:50 PM »
And in thinking about it, my aversion to lying is also one reason that I hate getting gifts.  I know exactly what I want and need, and if anybody gets me anything else beside that I don't want it. 

Then I somehow have to plaster a smile on my face, nod my head, and somehow force out the words (lie) "That's just what I needed" as I'm staring at anything but the person I got it from.  I'm completely graceless.   :roll: 
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2009, 01:48:59 PM »
Now let us turn it around....

How do you feel when you find out someone lied to you? I prefer the truth no matter what. If someone tells me something and I plan things based on what I was told then find out later it was not the truth then I am ticked off. I can deal with the tough truth than I can a lie.
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 01:50:58 PM »
And in thinking about it, my aversion to lying is also one reason that I hate getting gifts.  I know exactly what I want and need, and if anybody gets me anything else beside that I don't want it. 

Then I somehow have to plaster a smile on my face, nod my head, and somehow force out the words (lie) "That's just what I needed" as I'm staring at anything but the person I got it from.  I'm completely graceless.   :roll: 

I am the same way but on the other hand if they don't like the gift I gave them I want to know so that perhaps I can return it and get something they do like or need and also not to make the same mistake next time.
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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 02:22:36 PM »

I am the same way but on the other hand if they don't like the gift I gave them I want to know so that perhaps I can return it and get something they do like or need and also not to make the same mistake next time.

Huh..give gifts?  I don't give gifts because I don't know what people really want or need.  And I refuse to give useless gifts.  :roll:  So now I only give honey as a gift :)  And yes, I'd rather know what I gave was wrong, but my wife will usually tell me :lol:

We mostly give gifts to my in-laws (it is a strange consumerist ritual that's required), and we assume what we give isn't their standards and they will throw it away or give it away anyway so we try not to let that bother us.
Rick
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Offline beemaster

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 03:09:29 PM »
As anyone knows by now who has followed along, I'm going to the Beemaster's Southern Gathering this month - I have the shuttle ride and airplane tickets, am excited about seeing PDMattox and his family again and getting to know Understudy during that ride to Buds :)

Last year, in a greedy kinda way, I was glad that the gathering was cancelled because I was recovering from from the car accident and scheduled that week for Neurological tests - I couldn't have made it and there may not have been a meeting this year.

I'm saying this (just as an example - not a real world situation) because some guys may promise to come and as it nears, because of the thought of driving/flying hundreds or thousands of miles may change your mind as the reality of a long voyage comes closer - and out comes a story to get yourself out of it.

In that case, I think it always better ust to say "I'd like to make it, but I can't promise that I can" than no one lies and if you show up it is a great surprise, which beats a let down every time. Lots of cases like this come up in life, we just change our minds and can't get one foot out in front of the other, then it turns into calling out sick and coughing on the phone to the boss just to add a little drama to your BS Story.

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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2009, 12:02:22 AM »
All babies are sweet, even the ugly ones, right?  That would be true without lying about the ugly ones... :-D  I always told my wife that babies look like grubs with arms....she don't appreciate that none  :evil:.

I agree with you on the lying thing.  If I try to tell a lie I get all shifty feeling and I can't look anybody in the eye. :roll:

With kids it isn't always so easy...if they want to know something, "I'm not telling you that" usually don't fly.  So they usually pester me until I throw some crazy off-the-wall answer at them (is it a lie if it is so obvious and not meant to deceive??) and then they usually get it....

There is a time and a place for a "lie", although rare.  To save a pain or a life.  What happened in world war 2.  To protect vulnerable children from the parents indiscretions.

I learned long ago that there is no such thing as an Ugly Baby.  There are 2 kinds of babies, handsome little tykes and cute little monkeys.
I never have to lie about what a baby looks like.
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2009, 11:24:16 AM »
I guess nobody wants to give me an example of a lie you HAVE to tell. One you have no choice but to tell.
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Online kathyp

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2009, 11:42:16 AM »
i could give you examples, but then i'd have to kill you  :evil:


Quote
How do you feel when you find out someone lied to you

depends on who is doing the lying.  when it's my x daughter-in-law, it just ticks me off...although it's not unexpected.  when it's someone who has reason to keep secrets, it doesn't bother me....it's part of the package.  if i have to do it, i feel no guilt.  if i choose to do it, that's another thing.
.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Keith13

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 12:02:17 PM »
I guess nobody wants to give me an example of a lie you HAVE to tell. One you have no choice but to tell.

like i said Jerry i have 2 customer one would benefit from knowing what the other is doing. one ask me about the others operations I will tell them I don't know when full well I do.

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Offline eri

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 12:33:48 PM »
I would argue that there is no such thing as "no choice" if you know (or believe) one thing is true and another thing is not. You would have no choice but to tell a lie if all you knew was the lie, in which case you would believe the lie was the truth.

If, however, by "no choice" you mean that the consequences of your telling the truth is somehow unacceptable and the lie is the only acceptable option, then you're in "justification" territory, and/or situational ethics. Example: I know for sure a certain person will kill a certain child if the child can be found. I know where the child is hiding. I don't tell.
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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »
i could give you examples, but then i'd have to kill you  :evil:

Ok, then!  How about a lie to satisfy Jerry's curiosity so that Kathy doesn't have to kill him???  :-D
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »
like i said Jerry i have 2 customer one would benefit from knowing what the other is doing. one ask me about the others operations I will tell them I don't know when full well I do.

My response would be something like, "If I tell you about him then I would be obligated to tell him about you."

If, however, by "no choice" you mean that the consequences of your telling the truth is somehow unacceptable and the lie is the only acceptable option, then you're in "justification" territory, and/or situational ethics. Example: I know for sure a certain person will kill a certain child if the child can be found. I know where the child is hiding. I don't tell.

"Why would I tell you where the child is when you just threatened to kill him/her?"


I still don't see where one HAS to tell a lie. :roll:
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Offline beemaster

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 06:09:10 PM »
Yes Jerry, everyone has lied, and been lied too - parents talk of Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc.. The difference is whether the lie was told knowingly, or the situation has changed and the truth was negated - when you break terms down to simple rules like "lie or truth", since it is an either or and no gray scales in between, lies happen all the time.

If lying is meant to spare someone's hurt feelings, we justify it - but it is still a lie. If we lie with the intent to not do it, it is a lie, if we accidentally say our age is 50 but it is 51, as innocent as it is - it is a lie. Lies are untruths. We use words like "white lies" "errors" "half truths" and so on to justify our not being truthful - but in the end, if it isn't true, it has to be a lie. Justifying lies is almost a 1 to 10 scale process, we feel better if what we say makes it easier for the other party to swallow, but in fact we had to make a lie up, and since it was done in a way to reduce the "degree" of the lie, it still is maliciously done.


"A promise is a lie if you cannot with complete certainty dedicate yourself to fruition, and all unseen events can change the truth to a lie" ( The counted book of chosen sorrows - Dean Koontz) which is really true - all the hoping in the world has a double edge sword about it, you can't guarantee anything, cars break down, emergencies happen and simply put if something is NOT the truth, than it is a lie. Intent to complete a truth does not change that it is a lie just because circumstances don't allow the truth to occur.

So how can anyone innocently or purposely tell the truth and not open a door to a lie? Okay, lie may be a "big word", over-stating a commitment that is broken for unknown or known circumstances circumstances - but the defining line is if you mean to not tell the truth, we know that everything said could be taken as truth or suspiciously interpreted by the other party - it is when we know what we say isn't the truth that lies are embedded in stone - when STUFF happens beyond your control and the rules change, then in the real world you are forgiven, Chit happens and if the lie was purposefully done - only the gifted gets away with untruths, yet they lie. A dictionary says: LIES, an untruth! It doesn't excuse unforeseen events though, so it cannot account for them.

When unforeseen evens occur, we forgive the person, but the promise is broken, the task is incomplete so Webster would call it a lie.
About being lied to... Yes I have been many times, when it is obvious, than it is rarely forgiven, when it is unforeseen events I forgive UNLESS the party was given a better offer that they opted, that I think is one of the worse kind of lies.

Tell me the truth, "I got a chance to meet someone famous or do something spectacular after we made plans - I really am sorry but this is a once in a life time chance - I promise to make it up to you!" is much better than saying, sorry I feel like crap, can we do it some other night okay?

And finally: I would rather be told "It is none of your business" any day than lied to. Lots of things are none of anyone's business - being honest and temporarily hurting feelings is always better (to me) than being lied to.

Lying is also a survival instinct I believe, giving a lie can get you out of a predicament so it is used. So if it is a defense mechanism, then we can hardly blame some lies on that imaginary 1-10 scale.

Just so thinking aloud, I personally don't believe all lies are equal but look at sin (which lies are according to the Bible) and all sins (as unimaginable as it may seems) according to the Bible equal - theologically speaking it's hard to go through life without lying at least a few times a day. Will you see the list of lies on Judgment Day, it would be interesting!

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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 09:34:08 PM »
You have brought up a whole lot of other things I have changed in the past few years.

Promises.... I do not make promises any more. I say things like I will do my best, or I have every intention of doing so, we'll see. And if I can't get it done even after that I will do everything I can to contact the person so they will know I can't make it.

You are right.... a lie is a lie is a lie. Here is what I have seen. (my interpretation) Maybe Scadsobees  will agree, it seems that the more you lie, the easier it is to lie and there fore easier to tell more lies until one finds it easier to lie than to tell the truth. By that I mean lying in such a way as to avoid a confrontation or to NOT hurt someones feelings. (Perhaps the person does indeed need a wake up call and it would be better to tell the truth.) Like when telling those little lies to the kids, it is just so much easier to tell the little lie than to explain why/why not.

And it also seems that when you strive to not tell a lie... at all... it does become harder to tell the lie and you find other ways to say it. Like, "It's not my place to tell you." "It's none of your business."


But after what everyone has said, how does it feel when someone calls you a liar? After all, they are correct.
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Offline annette

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2009, 02:59:49 AM »
I have to agree with both of Kathy's posts.

Personal integrity is more important.  Doing what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it is part of integrity.  Paying a debt, regardless of how old, small, big, or inconvenient is part of integrity.  Standing up for the principals by which you live your life is part of integrity.  Trying to be kind, considerate, generous, and being a good example are all part of integrity.

Do all of that and an occasional lie is hardly noticed.  Some lies are necessary.

Intentional fabrications, on the other hand, soon identify a person as a untrustworty loudmouth.

OH Brian,

You have said all that I could possibly feel about this posting. Way to go Brian!!!

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2009, 11:45:01 AM »
There are some lies that are required still, and I think we can all agree on that...

The Biblical lie (the only allowable Biblical one that I can think of offhand) that I was taught about growing up was Rahab hiding the spies in Jericho...if she hadn't lied, or if she had said merely "I can't say what's on the roof", then those spies would have been discovered and killed.

And during the slavery debacle, and during WW2...people were living lies, telling lies, complete fabrications to preserve the lives of men, women, children, babies, families.

Those were necessary.

Telling my wife that those new bee boxes in the garage were actually just leftovers from last year and that I haven't spent any more money on equipment...well...that is necessary too, right??? ;)

Rick
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Offline Keith13

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 02:22:36 PM »
What about parents telling their kids Santa Clause and the Easter bunny are real would you call them liars as well?

Keith

Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2009, 06:57:22 PM »
Yep. Those are lies aren't they?  ;)
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Offline Irwin

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2009, 08:37:01 PM »
As long as I'm alive there will always be Santaclaus and the Easter bunny for my grandkids so you can call me a liar Jerrymac !!
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Liar Liar ....
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2009, 08:46:49 PM »

                                :-D :-D :-D

A new converted member for the self proclaimed liars club. All who join will receive fabulous gifts and each month the biggest liar wins an all expense paid trip to Tahiti with any six living persons of his/her choosing. (Even if we have to kidnap them)
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