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Author Topic: Liar Liar ....  (Read 4063 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: April 06, 2009, 01:03:41 PM »

I find it amazing how many times a person claims to be honest and never lies and then the next moment they spout out a lie and not even think about it. Or say something like, "Oh it is just a little white lie."

For the past twenty years I have tried hard to not tell a lie. And I find that sometimes I slip up. Maybe not intentionally but still an untruth is still a lie. And when I find I have done this I make attempts to correct it. It might be something like my son wanting money and I tell him I don't have any. I will later go and amend that to I do have some money but it needs to go toward something else.

Now there are those times I do spout out an untruth in a joking manner with great certainty that the intended audience knows it is not true. Then of course the huge stories that no one could be expected to believe.

For the most part however, a lie is an intent to deceive. This could be a big lie.... "I didn't have sex with that woman." or even a little lie "No son, I don't have any money." 

And then there is "pushing the truth". This is where what you say is basically true, but has been expanded a bit to make a better story or stronger point.

So I was just wondering what you guys consider is a permissible lie. Do you never tell a lie? Do you think it's OK to tell lies on forums and chat rooms because you really don't know the people. Is it OK to lie to your enemies?

Are little white lies not really lies?
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2009, 02:36:47 PM »

I think it better to NOT tell the whole truth than to lie - as you mention the FORUM, not always is it in the best interest of a particular member (s), the forum as a whole or anyone to OVER EXPLAIN a situation, keeping a shortened version often saved people a lot of embarrasment and is the right thing to do Smiley

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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2009, 05:03:10 PM »

Several years ago someone did some research,I don't know the method they used, or how they accomplished it, and I wish I could remember were I read it.

But those posting on internet forums, piloting, motorhomes, camping, etc. and I guess bee forums also, about a 1/3 are just BS'ing, and have no or little experience.

As a former part time Bar Tender, there were always a few that had a opinion on everything, they became more of a expert at BS'ing the more drinks they had, of course every one knew them !

Now on the internet with hidden identities any thing goes !

Why I say;
Take every thing you see on the forums with a grain or two of salt !!

That's My opinion and I'm sticking with it till it gets changed.

Bee-Bop

PS. The old TV program Cheer's was awful close to the truth !
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 05:10:04 PM »

personal integrity might be more important than complete honesty.  there are times when the truth can not be told.  sometimes a lie is even called for.  you need to have some faith that the person who may be lying to you, is doing it for a higher purpose.....
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 06:07:29 PM »

Ya know Jerry most times I try to tell the truth. But there are sometimes with my girlfriend I know it is better to lie than tell the truth. Example....does this dress make me look fat. some idiots might fall right into that trap but not I, my answer is of course not baby grin grin  At work with dealing with customers some will ask me about their competition and I will tell them I do not know or something along those lines, when I very well might know what the are asking about. Ethically I do not believe it right of me to give let say Exxon info to Shell or vice versa. In my personal life I try to be as honest as possible learned at an early age I don't remember stories I tell very well and if I told a lie I had to remember that lie so as not to bust myself later. It was just easier to remember the truth and not have to remember all the falsehoods.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 06:40:03 PM »

So you would rather lie than to tell someone you will not answer that. Or you'd rather not answer that.

Of course telling someone the dress does not make them look fat is not necessarily a lie. Usually the person looks fat no matter what and it might be they who make the dress look fat  shocked

Another thing is, once a person catches you in a lie it is hard to get their trust back. One of my grandsons will believe me before he will believe his own parents, simply because he knows they have lied to him. Might have been just one of those little white lies.... to protect him or what ever, but still a lie he caught them in.

Does KFC have a secret recipe? Yes. Will they tell you what it is? No. And they don't have to lie about it. Just simply, "we ain't tellin'!"
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 08:03:32 PM »

depends on what you are doing.  if you find you are in a position where you must keep secrets, sometimes a lie is all that will do.  "i don't want to take about it" is just not going to cut it. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 01:30:40 AM »

I have to agree with both of Kathy's posts.

Personal integrity is more important.  Doing what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it is part of integrity.  Paying a debt, regardless of how old, small, big, or inconvenient is part of integrity.  Standing up for the principals by which you live your life is part of integrity.  Trying to be kind, considerate, generous, and being a good example are all part of integrity.

Do all of that and an occasional lie is hardly noticed.  Some lies are necessary.

Intentional fabrications, on the other hand, soon identify a person as a untrustworty loudmouth.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 04:05:16 AM »

At work, I have to lie through my teeth every 5 minutes.

In real life, I have nothing to lie about!

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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2009, 08:12:37 AM »


Does KFC have a secret recipe? Yes. Will they tell you what it is? No. And they don't have to lie about it. Just simply, "we ain't tellin'!"

But how do you know that?  That yellow bit of paper(that nobody's seen) could have been the Colonel's grocery list. They get publicity.  They could be lying.  But you don't have a choice but to trust them....
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2009, 09:25:04 AM »

They have some sort of batter on their chicken. Does anyone know what is in it?

I am going to have to ask for specifics cause I just can't think of anything a person would have to lie about.

Mick, what kind of job does one take that requires them to lie? I would have to move on to something else.

Here are more examples around here. My daughter would get mad at me when I would go to answer the phone. She would say "If it's so and so tell them I am not here." So I would not answer the phone. If I answer the phone and someone is wanting info on someone, I just tell them I don't give out that information. I would tell the caller they don't want to talk right now and hang up rather than say they are not here.
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2009, 09:43:02 AM »

They have some sort of batter on their chicken. Does anyone know what is in it?


Tony Chachere's

Keith
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2009, 10:16:19 AM »

They have some sort of batter on their chicken. Does anyone know what is in it?


Tony Chachere's

Keith

I don't know what that is. Must be sports related  rolleyes
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2009, 10:18:10 AM »

They have some sort of batter on their chicken. Does anyone know what is in it?


Tony Chachere's

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Its a local spice here in south Louisiana

I don't know what that is. Must be sports related  rolleyes
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2009, 10:20:12 AM »

Really? A spice?

I was thinking since I said "batter" he was a baseball player.  embarassed
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2009, 10:47:43 AM »

I've always had the belief that it is better to tell someone it is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS than to LIE TO THEM - but some situations are so far from the norm, that special rules must apply. If a small lie lets someone go about life feeling better about themselves, then I'll gladly stretch the truth some.

Again thought, sometimes it is a matter of opinion too: my wife came home with what I thought was a hideous haircut one time, she was obviously boasting it toward me, in her mind really loving the look - To me it looked like three birds and ha fight on her head and they all died right there, but I sure wasn't going to tell her that. If it made her feel happy, thatn my feelings for her outweighed my perception of the truth. Then again, who is to say that it wasn't ME that was wrong!

When it comes to the forum though, I always do my best to keep the members informed with the most accurate info I have - good or bad, I do the boss thing. In private messages, I speak openly and try to resolve issues or show the member the door. So when we lie and why we lie really has purposes that can't be answered in a yes or no format.

At the end of the day, it is about feeling good about yourself and how you have made others feel.

In the outside world: work, dealing with strangers or at least people you owe to, then you have more room to tell them it's none of their business, and I don't mind doing that one bit.

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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 11:02:29 AM »

My wife learned from the git-go that I like long hair on women. Her's was not even to her shoulders when we met, now it is down to her... umm... back side. She knows she can cut it off if she wants to, but also knows I would not like it as much.

And I do avoid lying to new parents about how their baby looks.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 11:44:16 AM »

My wife learned from the git-go that I like long hair on women. Her's was not even to her shoulders when we met, now it is down to her... umm... back side. She knows she can cut it off if she wants to, but also knows I would not like it as much.

And I do avoid lying to new parents about how their baby looks.  Lips Sealed

I lie in that situation Jerry dealing with babies. What good does it do to tell some happy parents how ugly the baby is?

Charles Barkley once said " if so many beautiful babies are being born why are there so many ugly people walking around?"

Makes you think all peolple lie about pretty babies

Keith
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2009, 11:45:10 AM »

All babies are sweet, even the ugly ones, right?  That would be true without lying about the ugly ones... grin  I always told my wife that babies look like grubs with arms....she don't appreciate that none  evil.

I agree with you on the lying thing.  If I try to tell a lie I get all shifty feeling and I can't look anybody in the eye. rolleyes

With kids it isn't always so easy...if they want to know something, "I'm not telling you that" usually don't fly.  So they usually pester me until I throw some crazy off-the-wall answer at them (is it a lie if it is so obvious and not meant to deceive??) and then they usually get it....

There is a time and a place for a "lie", although rare.  To save a pain or a life.  What happened in world war 2.  To protect vulnerable children from the parents indiscretions.
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2009, 11:48:31 AM »

The problem (for me) with lying about hairdos and specially cooked meals and other things with my wife is that then they come around again and again and again: " but I thought you liked that..."

Then again, my wife don't have no trouble telling me what she don't like. rolleyes
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 12:39:50 PM »

And in thinking about it, my aversion to lying is also one reason that I hate getting gifts.  I know exactly what I want and need, and if anybody gets me anything else beside that I don't want it. 

Then I somehow have to plaster a smile on my face, nod my head, and somehow force out the words (lie) "That's just what I needed" as I'm staring at anything but the person I got it from.  I'm completely graceless.   rolleyes 
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2009, 12:48:59 PM »

Now let us turn it around....

How do you feel when you find out someone lied to you? I prefer the truth no matter what. If someone tells me something and I plan things based on what I was told then find out later it was not the truth then I am ticked off. I can deal with the tough truth than I can a lie.
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 12:50:58 PM »

And in thinking about it, my aversion to lying is also one reason that I hate getting gifts.  I know exactly what I want and need, and if anybody gets me anything else beside that I don't want it. 

Then I somehow have to plaster a smile on my face, nod my head, and somehow force out the words (lie) "That's just what I needed" as I'm staring at anything but the person I got it from.  I'm completely graceless.   rolleyes 

I am the same way but on the other hand if they don't like the gift I gave them I want to know so that perhaps I can return it and get something they do like or need and also not to make the same mistake next time.
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 01:22:36 PM »


I am the same way but on the other hand if they don't like the gift I gave them I want to know so that perhaps I can return it and get something they do like or need and also not to make the same mistake next time.

Huh..give gifts?  I don't give gifts because I don't know what people really want or need.  And I refuse to give useless gifts.  rolleyes  So now I only give honey as a gift Smiley  And yes, I'd rather know what I gave was wrong, but my wife will usually tell me cheesy

We mostly give gifts to my in-laws (it is a strange consumerist ritual that's required), and we assume what we give isn't their standards and they will throw it away or give it away anyway so we try not to let that bother us.
Rick
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:29 PM »

As anyone knows by now who has followed along, I'm going to the Beemaster's Southern Gathering this month - I have the shuttle ride and airplane tickets, am excited about seeing PDMattox and his family again and getting to know Understudy during that ride to Buds Smiley

Last year, in a greedy kinda way, I was glad that the gathering was cancelled because I was recovering from from the car accident and scheduled that week for Neurological tests - I couldn't have made it and there may not have been a meeting this year.

I'm saying this (just as an example - not a real world situation) because some guys may promise to come and as it nears, because of the thought of driving/flying hundreds or thousands of miles may change your mind as the reality of a long voyage comes closer - and out comes a story to get yourself out of it.

In that case, I think it always better ust to say "I'd like to make it, but I can't promise that I can" than no one lies and if you show up it is a great surprise, which beats a let down every time. Lots of cases like this come up in life, we just change our minds and can't get one foot out in front of the other, then it turns into calling out sick and coughing on the phone to the boss just to add a little drama to your BS Story.

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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 11:02:22 PM »

All babies are sweet, even the ugly ones, right?  That would be true without lying about the ugly ones... grin  I always told my wife that babies look like grubs with arms....she don't appreciate that none  evil.

I agree with you on the lying thing.  If I try to tell a lie I get all shifty feeling and I can't look anybody in the eye. rolleyes

With kids it isn't always so easy...if they want to know something, "I'm not telling you that" usually don't fly.  So they usually pester me until I throw some crazy off-the-wall answer at them (is it a lie if it is so obvious and not meant to deceive??) and then they usually get it....

There is a time and a place for a "lie", although rare.  To save a pain or a life.  What happened in world war 2.  To protect vulnerable children from the parents indiscretions.

I learned long ago that there is no such thing as an Ugly Baby.  There are 2 kinds of babies, handsome little tykes and cute little monkeys.
I never have to lie about what a baby looks like.
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2009, 10:24:16 AM »

I guess nobody wants to give me an example of a lie you HAVE to tell. One you have no choice but to tell.
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2009, 10:42:16 AM »

i could give you examples, but then i'd have to kill you  evil


Quote
How do you feel when you find out someone lied to you

depends on who is doing the lying.  when it's my x daughter-in-law, it just ticks me off...although it's not unexpected.  when it's someone who has reason to keep secrets, it doesn't bother me....it's part of the package.  if i have to do it, i feel no guilt.  if i choose to do it, that's another thing.
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 11:02:17 AM »

I guess nobody wants to give me an example of a lie you HAVE to tell. One you have no choice but to tell.

like i said Jerry i have 2 customer one would benefit from knowing what the other is doing. one ask me about the others operations I will tell them I don't know when full well I do.

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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 11:33:48 AM »

I would argue that there is no such thing as "no choice" if you know (or believe) one thing is true and another thing is not. You would have no choice but to tell a lie if all you knew was the lie, in which case you would believe the lie was the truth.

If, however, by "no choice" you mean that the consequences of your telling the truth is somehow unacceptable and the lie is the only acceptable option, then you're in "justification" territory, and/or situational ethics. Example: I know for sure a certain person will kill a certain child if the child can be found. I know where the child is hiding. I don't tell.
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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2009, 02:16:20 PM »

i could give you examples, but then i'd have to kill you  evil

Ok, then!  How about a lie to satisfy Jerry's curiosity so that Kathy doesn't have to kill him???  grin
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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2009, 03:32:17 PM »

like i said Jerry i have 2 customer one would benefit from knowing what the other is doing. one ask me about the others operations I will tell them I don't know when full well I do.

My response would be something like, "If I tell you about him then I would be obligated to tell him about you."

If, however, by "no choice" you mean that the consequences of your telling the truth is somehow unacceptable and the lie is the only acceptable option, then you're in "justification" territory, and/or situational ethics. Example: I know for sure a certain person will kill a certain child if the child can be found. I know where the child is hiding. I don't tell.

"Why would I tell you where the child is when you just threatened to kill him/her?"


I still don't see where one HAS to tell a lie. rolleyes
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 05:09:10 PM »

Yes Jerry, everyone has lied, and been lied too - parents talk of Santa and the Easter Bunny, etc.. The difference is whether the lie was told knowingly, or the situation has changed and the truth was negated - when you break terms down to simple rules like "lie or truth", since it is an either or and no gray scales in between, lies happen all the time.

If lying is meant to spare someone's hurt feelings, we justify it - but it is still a lie. If we lie with the intent to not do it, it is a lie, if we accidentally say our age is 50 but it is 51, as innocent as it is - it is a lie. Lies are untruths. We use words like "white lies" "errors" "half truths" and so on to justify our not being truthful - but in the end, if it isn't true, it has to be a lie. Justifying lies is almost a 1 to 10 scale process, we feel better if what we say makes it easier for the other party to swallow, but in fact we had to make a lie up, and since it was done in a way to reduce the "degree" of the lie, it still is maliciously done.


"A promise is a lie if you cannot with complete certainty dedicate yourself to fruition, and all unseen events can change the truth to a lie" ( The counted book of chosen sorrows - Dean Koontz) which is really true - all the hoping in the world has a double edge sword about it, you can't guarantee anything, cars break down, emergencies happen and simply put if something is NOT the truth, than it is a lie. Intent to complete a truth does not change that it is a lie just because circumstances don't allow the truth to occur.

So how can anyone innocently or purposely tell the truth and not open a door to a lie? Okay, lie may be a "big word", over-stating a commitment that is broken for unknown or known circumstances circumstances - but the defining line is if you mean to not tell the truth, we know that everything said could be taken as truth or suspiciously interpreted by the other party - it is when we know what we say isn't the truth that lies are embedded in stone - when STUFF happens beyond your control and the rules change, then in the real world you are forgiven, Chit happens and if the lie was purposefully done - only the gifted gets away with untruths, yet they lie. A dictionary says: LIES, an untruth! It doesn't excuse unforeseen events though, so it cannot account for them.

When unforeseen evens occur, we forgive the person, but the promise is broken, the task is incomplete so Webster would call it a lie.
About being lied to... Yes I have been many times, when it is obvious, than it is rarely forgiven, when it is unforeseen events I forgive UNLESS the party was given a better offer that they opted, that I think is one of the worse kind of lies.

Tell me the truth, "I got a chance to meet someone famous or do something spectacular after we made plans - I really am sorry but this is a once in a life time chance - I promise to make it up to you!" is much better than saying, sorry I feel like crap, can we do it some other night okay?

And finally: I would rather be told "It is none of your business" any day than lied to. Lots of things are none of anyone's business - being honest and temporarily hurting feelings is always better (to me) than being lied to.

Lying is also a survival instinct I believe, giving a lie can get you out of a predicament so it is used. So if it is a defense mechanism, then we can hardly blame some lies on that imaginary 1-10 scale.

Just so thinking aloud, I personally don't believe all lies are equal but look at sin (which lies are according to the Bible) and all sins (as unimaginable as it may seems) according to the Bible equal - theologically speaking it's hard to go through life without lying at least a few times a day. Will you see the list of lies on Judgment Day, it would be interesting!

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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 08:34:08 PM »

You have brought up a whole lot of other things I have changed in the past few years.

Promises.... I do not make promises any more. I say things like I will do my best, or I have every intention of doing so, we'll see. And if I can't get it done even after that I will do everything I can to contact the person so they will know I can't make it.

You are right.... a lie is a lie is a lie. Here is what I have seen. (my interpretation) Maybe Scadsobees  will agree, it seems that the more you lie, the easier it is to lie and there fore easier to tell more lies until one finds it easier to lie than to tell the truth. By that I mean lying in such a way as to avoid a confrontation or to NOT hurt someones feelings. (Perhaps the person does indeed need a wake up call and it would be better to tell the truth.) Like when telling those little lies to the kids, it is just so much easier to tell the little lie than to explain why/why not.

And it also seems that when you strive to not tell a lie... at all... it does become harder to tell the lie and you find other ways to say it. Like, "It's not my place to tell you." "It's none of your business."


But after what everyone has said, how does it feel when someone calls you a liar? After all, they are correct.
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« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2009, 01:59:49 AM »

I have to agree with both of Kathy's posts.

Personal integrity is more important.  Doing what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it is part of integrity.  Paying a debt, regardless of how old, small, big, or inconvenient is part of integrity.  Standing up for the principals by which you live your life is part of integrity.  Trying to be kind, considerate, generous, and being a good example are all part of integrity.

Do all of that and an occasional lie is hardly noticed.  Some lies are necessary.

Intentional fabrications, on the other hand, soon identify a person as a untrustworty loudmouth.

OH Brian,

You have said all that I could possibly feel about this posting. Way to go Brian!!!
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2009, 10:45:01 AM »

There are some lies that are required still, and I think we can all agree on that...

The Biblical lie (the only allowable Biblical one that I can think of offhand) that I was taught about growing up was Rahab hiding the spies in Jericho...if she hadn't lied, or if she had said merely "I can't say what's on the roof", then those spies would have been discovered and killed.

And during the slavery debacle, and during WW2...people were living lies, telling lies, complete fabrications to preserve the lives of men, women, children, babies, families.

Those were necessary.

Telling my wife that those new bee boxes in the garage were actually just leftovers from last year and that I haven't spent any more money on equipment...well...that is necessary too, right??? Wink

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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 01:22:36 PM »

What about parents telling their kids Santa Clause and the Easter bunny are real would you call them liars as well?

Keith
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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2009, 05:57:22 PM »

Yep. Those are lies aren't they?  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2009, 07:37:01 PM »

As long as I'm alive there will always be Santaclaus and the Easter bunny for my grandkids so you can call me a liar Jerrymac !!
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« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2009, 07:46:49 PM »


                                grin grin grin

A new converted member for the self proclaimed liars club. All who join will receive fabulous gifts and each month the biggest liar wins an all expense paid trip to Tahiti with any six living persons of his/her choosing. (Even if we have to kidnap them)
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2009, 10:48:52 AM »

I thought there would be hoards of people joining. Guess I will have to sweeten the pot. How about the above being the runner up prize and for first place a 180 ft yacht with a ten year supply of sailboat fuel? 
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2009, 11:05:53 AM »

I thought there would be hoards of people joining. Guess I will have to sweeten the pot. How about the above being the runner up prize and for first place a 180 ft yacht with a ten year supply of sailboat fuel? 

sailboat fuel  :lau:I like that never heard that one before

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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2009, 11:08:06 AM »

Jerry, life is too short not to be direct. How will people know what we want unless we tell them, right?

Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are games, wonderful games. We all find out the truth on that sooner or later, most of us sooner.

The telling of lies is too much work, easy to concoct, but hard to remember. Like the saying goes, the truth shall set you free. Lies keep us in bondage.


...JP
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2009, 01:03:53 AM »

I thought there would be hoards of people joining. Guess I will have to sweeten the pot. How about the above being the runner up prize and for first place a 180 ft yacht with a ten year supply of sailboat fuel? 

Can I join?  I have a brother who plays so much chin music he could sail a Yacht all by himself.  He already has a life time supply of sailboat fuel.
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2009, 12:26:06 PM »


The telling of lies is too much work, easy to concoct, but hard to remember. Like the saying goes, the truth shall set you free. Lies keep us in bondage.


...JP

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